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Mashu 09-01-2005 02:15 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Of course, the only wares you can get from the Takeda or Ueshiba marketing team are peddled by the management team over at Aikido Journal, and if there is a hell they are going to hell because of it.

.

Did Aikido Journal do something bad?

What will their version of Hell look like? :)

Ron Tisdale 09-01-2005 02:34 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Well, it's a viewpoint I don't agree with, but some do feel that Aikido Journal operates too much as a business, and not just a source of information. I guess it's because of the product focus that the site has now, combined with how that product focus might seem to reflect and promote only specific views within the aikido community.

Personally, I am gratefull for the information they provide, I have enjoyed the products I've purchased, I think that hard work deserves a financial reward, and I know there were many years were Stan Pranin and others involved made peanuts. So if they get something back for all those years and all that effort it's fine by me.

But that's just my own opinion...others may well feel differently.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale 09-01-2005 02:41 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

What will their version of Hell look like?
Oh, I don't know...multiple sessions of hikari geiko with shihonage as the waza? :)

Best,
Ron

PS is that keiko or geiko after hikari? My Japanese really stinks!

RT

pps so does my spelling!

Mashu 09-01-2005 02:45 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
I see. I have a subscription there and enjoy reading the articles and watching the video clips. The only bad part for me is that some of the older interviews there are with rather key people from the Aikido or Omotokyo world and the interviewer doesn't seem to ask very many questions that I would have liked to have seen asked. But what can you do?

So their version of Hell is that they don't get the seal of approval from some of the purists. That's a fairly tame Hell. :) At least they don't have to constantly drink gallons of Lightning Bolt and do Irimi Nage with Seagal Sensei for an eternity.

Chris Li 09-01-2005 02:58 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
That was exactly my point; it is his responsibility. However, sometimes it is those that surround celebrities (them's that try to eek a living out of their existence) that come up with these crackpot ideas, and often, in times where contractually they have to do what the marketing team comes up with. The person (these days, really just a product vehicle) might only have a small input on what the final product may look/smell/taste or be like.

Sure, but they chose to sign those contracts - and it's not as if it would be a first time thing for either of them.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Of course, the only wares you can get from the Takeda or Ueshiba marketing team are peddled by the management team over at Aikido Journal, and if there is a hell they are going to hell because of it.

Well, Sokaku Takeda marketed himself very agressively while he was alive (although there wasn't much merchandising in that era). There was, of course, marketing and merchandising by Morihei Ueshiba as well, even continued today by the Ueshiba family (I don't think that there's anything wrong with that). No energy drinks, but the Aikido neckties at Aikikai Hombu are pretty cheesy :).

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
However, when it comes to the drink (or maybe the martial artist) I think you might get more good out of the Orange Juice, and certainly a lot less bad.

Orange juice is certainly healthier, my point was simply that the amount of sugar in and of itself wasn't out of the normal range for sweet drinks. Anyway, I'd rather save detailed nutritional breakdowns and discussions of which types of sugar are metabolized how for another thread :).

Best,

Chris

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-01-2005 03:04 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Matthew Zsebik wrote:
Did Aikido Journal do something bad?

What will their version of Hell look like? :)

Hi Matthew,

As I have been known to say, "...that depends upon both who is asking and who is answering..."



.

Erik 09-01-2005 06:32 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Ya know, ya gotta eat, some of us more than others.

Sanshouaikikai 09-01-2005 08:13 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Wow...Mr. Ravens is a communist! You do know, Mr. Raven...that many people also die from Communist regimes as well as Capitalist ones! As for Jesus...I wouldn't mind dying for His sake if I had to. However....Mr. Ravens...everything else you say (except for the Aikido Journal thing...I dunno what that's all about! lol!) I totally, 100% agree with! Right on! lol!

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-01-2005 11:04 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, it's a viewpoint I don't agree with, but some do feel that Aikido Journal operates too much as a business, and not just a source of information. I guess it's because of the product focus that the site has now, combined with how that product focus might seem to reflect and promote only specific views within the aikido community.

<rant>Yeah, well, without a doubt if this thread were over at AJ, it would be mysteriously deleted because questioning the mindset of the owners of the site is a big NO-NO - especially when it relates to anything close to one of their revenue streams! I privately questioned the thread pulling, and I was simply booted off the site by a rather rude, nerdy webmaster, (un hombre sans-juevos, from what I could gather). I don't want to embarrass myself or the owner of the site by posting my thoughts about the private email I received from him which basically said, "Yell, well that is the way it is around here!" followed up with a "I don't want to hear anything more from you..." So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Personally, I am gratefull for the information they provide, I have enjoyed the products I've purchased, I think that hard work deserves a financial reward, and I know there were many years were Stan Pranin and others involved made peanuts. So if they get something back for all those years and all that effort it's fine by me. But that's just my own opinion...others may well feel differently.[/b]

Well, I for one would love to see Aikido Journal operate as a not-for-profit organization. It would make me feel better, as their books and board meeting minutes would be open to public scrutiny. It would go a long way towards silencing the many detractors out there who wonder what their hidden agenda is, and how that agenda has skewed the Aikido world that reads from its web-pages. And before anyone goes off saying, "They are fair and balanced..." Well, hey I say, "Even the fair and balanced guys are about as one-sided and have a particular agenda as one can get. It's like the difference between the NY Times and the NY Post, which forces one to ask oneself, "How can the same news be represented so differently unless the writer has a hidden agenda?"

To me, the ownership of images and videos of O-Sensei, and quite a few other major Aikido personalities just seems "awkward," but hey that's just me - you may feel just the opposite! There is nothing wrong with making money. Some directors of large non-profits make upwards of 300-400K/year, and that aint counting the many perks.

Just the choice to do it as a for-profit venture tells you something about the mindset of those who set it up, and for the negative-minded, I said mindset, not heart, soul, spirit or even intention. Again, if it weren't Aikido, and given that aikido is seeking a holistic approach to humanity, then I would have less issue with it, but once again, that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

...but alas, I have hijacked the thread, so I will end my comments with regards to things other than ones about the lovely new taste of Lightning Bolt, a product that I am sure Seagal Sensei, or at least OJ, himself spent quite a bit of time developing while former pondered the wonders of Buddha and the latter searched for Nicole's killers!



... Did I actually post this? Oops...!



.

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-01-2005 11:12 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Wow...Mr. Ravens is a communist! You do know, Mr. Raven...that many people also die from Communist regimes as well as Capitalist ones! As for Jesus...I wouldn't mind dying for His sake if I had to. However....Mr. Ravens...everything else you say (except for the Aikido Journal thing...I dunno what that's all about! lol!) I totally, 100% agree with! Right on! lol!

Hey, did you see my "secret Systema tatoo or find my top-secret communist decoder ring? I thought I had that well-hidden in my underwear drawer. So I ask you straight out, Mr. Rodriguez, "What were you doing in my underwear drawer?" and say to you, "Stay outta my drawers, for Pete's sake!"

As for Jesus, you best check your facts... I think the saying goes something like, "He died for you, you live for him..." I do believe the answer to the question, "What possible good would dying for him be?" is entirely another thread...


.

Mashu 09-01-2005 11:14 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Does a website like that have a big impact on the Aikido world?

I've seen people work the internet to sell themselves and then their wares but does it really make a difference?

It's kinda hard to tell from my vantage point.

Chris Li 09-02-2005 12:07 AM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

Stan Pranin's been around for a long time, and had a lot of lean years - even now I don't think that anyone would categorize him as "wealthy", in spite of owning the "AJ money maker".

I've certainly questioned various sections of their take on Aikido's history on the AJ boards - never had a problem though...

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Well, I for one would love to see Aikido Journal operate as a not-for-profit organization. It would make me feel better, as their books and board meeting minutes would be open to public scrutiny.

Hmm, I'd like Sony to operate as a not-for-profit organization, but I doubt that they'll listen to me :). OTOH, there's nothing to stop you from starting up your own not-for-profit organization devoted to researching and publishing Aikido history.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
To me, the ownership of images and videos of O-Sensei, and quite a few other major Aikido personalities just seems "awkward," but hey that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

So, you would prefer that someone (not yourself) lay out the money for producing and distributing the videos, but that you should be free to copy them as you please? If you feel that way than why aren't you producing and packaging Aikido images and videos out of your own pocket and distributing them under an open-source license?

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Just the choice to do it as a for-profit venture tells you something about the mindset of those who set it up, and for the negative-minded, I said mindset, not heart, soul, spirit or even intention. Again, if it weren't Aikido, and given that aikido is seeking a holistic approach to humanity, then I would have less issue with it, but once again, that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

Morihei Ueshiba participated in quite a few for-profit ventures. Books and film distributed by the founder were sold for-profit while he was alive. In fact, he made a pretty good living off of Aikido. Good enough for kaiso, but not for anybody else?

Best,

Chris

Jiawei 09-02-2005 02:49 AM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, it's a viewpoint I don't agree with, but some do feel that Aikido Journal operates too much as a business, and not just a source of information. I guess it's because of the product focus that the site has now, combined with how that product focus might seem to reflect and promote only specific views within the aikido community.

Personally, I am gratefull for the information they provide, I have enjoyed the products I've purchased, I think that hard work deserves a financial reward, and I know there were many years were Stan Pranin and others involved made peanuts. So if they get something back for all those years and all that effort it's fine by me.

But that's just my own opinion...others may well feel differently.

Best,
Ron

Yep. Totally agree. Hey maintainence of the website and the operation need money you know ? Whats Stan supposed to do ? Live off his rich dad's inheritence ? ?? Come on. Everybody's a critic. The articles are great. There are a lot of freebies too.... And you still have a choice on wether you want the product from their website or somewhere else . Its not a monopoly or anything. How no one complains about Kinokuniya or border's selling Aikido books at sky high prices. At least in my country they do...

Ron Tisdale 09-02-2005 10:11 AM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Jun, I think the posts about AJ deserve a thread of their own. Would you object to moving them to a separate thread? I think there are some serious issues to discuss.

On that subject, I actually think the non-profit suggestion is a good one. And I want to make it clear that I have no issues with Stan and his staff making good salaries off of the valuable work that they do. But it would go a long way toward quelling some of the dissent out there.

Shaun, like Chris, I have spoken my mind pretty freely on that site. I've placed notices about seminars of people that Stan is pretty much diametricly opposed to on the site. With no problems what-so-ever. No one has asked me not to post. No one has even suggested that. When I've had complaints, I've posted them. I do however, try to be polite and respectfull of the valuable work they've done archiving, restoring and making available to us the rich legacy of aikido.

All of that material they have was mouldering in basements, attics, etc. until they saw the value of it and began to take care of it. The shihan were dying one by one, with no voice outside of very small circles until Stan made a point of interviewing them. I may not agree 100% with the viewpoints or the way the site was/is run...but man...we've gotta give credit where it is due. We all owe Stan a debt of gratitude. At least we have the information to argue over!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale 09-02-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Aikido Journal
 
Damn! That was fast... ;)

Thanks Jun!

R

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-02-2005 10:58 AM

Re: Aikido Journal
 
Jun,

While I think it fine that you chose to move these posts to a new thread, I have some objection to the name you gave it. Would you mind much changing it to Commercialism - Good or Bad for Aikido or something along that nature?

This is not an issue with one particular website, but the larger issue at hand, that being the apparent control of the archival materials by a group that is also putting out their own version of the history of Aikido. When a group can profit considerably by supporting one opinion versus another, it needs to be questioned. I find it more than problematic that certain martial organizations supported by "opinion" come out generating profits for those putting out the information. This represents a conflict of interest in my opinion.

Thank you.

PS - I do believe that post #5 in this thread should be moved back to the thread as it does not address this issue and speaks soley with regards to the Lightning Bolt Drink. If you agree, then perhaps it could be moved back into that thread...


.

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-02-2005 01:50 PM

Predictable decline in detectable reality (i.e. when manipulated truth becomes fact)
 
Quote:

Matthew Zsebik wrote:
Does a website like that have a big impact on the Aikido world?

I've seen people work the internet to sell themselves and then their wares but does it really make a difference?

It's kinda hard to tell from my vantage point.

On initial reading, I would have to say no. I based that in this particular case on the fact that AJ, a large and popular website, is currently mostly in English (although there is a concerted effort to change this on a daily basis) and it is predominantly read here in America. Of course, I don't have any website statistics to prove that, but any evidence to the contrary would only go towards proving my counter thoughts, which are as follows:

When I think about it and extend the consideration of your question out into the future I find that the answer is a resounding YES! Yes, a website can have a considerable measurable effect on the community which it serves. I have already stated, when you have a group with their own particular bent on the facts take that information and put it out in many of the world's major languages through an easily available media to a targeted audience there is bound to be an astounding effect. Certainly it can't be discounted as a probability.

If we take this basic premise and extend it out in time we can predict a disturbing trend. Metaphorically speaking, (and please allow me the literary latitude) that the actions of the zealot of today are only outdone by the actions of the son of the zealot tomorrow. Okay those are broad strokes. In no way do I mean to paint everyone with the same brush. There are obviously more people who read things on a website with a grain of salt, than who do not. However, there are those who defend the opinions they read on a website, and they will do so to the day they die. Of course, to do so is their right. However, they haven't done any of their own research. It is therefore safe to say that their entire thinking is based upon the words of others - others with agendas and motives not known by reader. It is these people that I refer here to as zealots, and solely in this case, Aikido zealots. That doesn't mean that I don't also see them as real fine people. Just as with friends of mine whose politics I question, they are simply real fine people with whom I happen to disagree.

As we continue to extend this out into the future, we can agree that many of these same individuals are now or will eventually become Aikido instructors. In such a case they will be in positions of authority while holding opinions based upon information they once read on a website that they now have come to believe as aikido fact. They will pass these aikido opinions to their students as aikido facts, and in turn, when these students become teachers they will do the same, and so on down the line until we get unquestionable aikido truth. We have the benefit of being close in time to the life of the Founder. However, one hundred years from now there will not be such a benefit, and so the stories that are carried forward will become canon, true or not. I have already observed many irrational cases of this, but that is not what this thread is about, so I will leave that for another time.

It is also predictable that many of these teachers or those that will become teachers will travel, move and settle in other countries, thus seeding the process in other countries. There are already many instructors from the United States that travel extensively in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and (gasp) even Japan.

I think it fair that one should not just criticize, as that is the easy part and does not (necessarily) take substantial thinking, merely an emotional verbal regurgitation. I have proposed that with Aikido Journal that they step up and step out from behind the controversy of what some would say is an apparent biased stating of the history of Aikido, one based partially on the economic recovery possible by supporting one group over another. I am not the first, nor the only one to say this.

I offer that by becoming a non-profit organization where there is no private ownership of the archival and documentary materials of the Founder and his direct Uchi-Deshi that the Aikido community would be better served. That does not take away who gets the credit for bringing these materials to light. It also does not take away the possibility of those same individuals being paid in some capacity to manage the materials. What it does is give the process some oversight by a board of directors who answer to a higher authority, so to speak. More importantly it would give a level of transparency so that the Aikido community can feel confident that what they are seeing, reading, etc. is not being manipulated in any way. I envision a Museum where people can go and see these materials for themselves. They would have the opportunity to examine these materials with their own eyes and make up their own minds as to what to think. I believe that these materials should be kept separate from the academics whose theories put forth their own opinions about how we should view these materials, academics that have a stake in publishing their findings in the for-profit world. Not that those theories are unimportant in their own right, just that they should be kept separate.

In any case these are just my thoughts, opinions and ideas on the matter. Mashu since you asked the question what are your thoughts on the matter?




.

crbateman 09-02-2005 02:16 PM

Re: Aikido Journal
 
You guys have to know that Stan Pranin has a family to support, and Aikido is his livelihood. He has dedicated himself for many years accumulating material on Aikido that would be long dead without him. Much of it he gives away for free in the archives and in the day to day operation of the website (the maintenance of which, in and of itself, costs good money), but he does have to sell some DVD's once in a while to pay the bills. And you must admit, there is no better quality material to be found anywhere. His website is one of the primary hangouts of Aikido people, who don't represent an enormous market in the first place. Where else would you expect Stan to market his products? He is as class an act as you're likely to find, and I think some of us need to reassess his contribution to our art, and cut the guy some slack.

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-02-2005 02:38 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
I've certainly questioned various sections of their take on Aikido's history on the AJ boards - never had a problem though...

Questions do not necessarily indicate problems, but they do not exclude them either. You may feel more or less strongly with regards to what to do about it, but you have some questions, nonetheless.
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Hmm, I'd like Sony to operate as a not-for-profit organization, but I doubt that they'll listen to me :). OTOH, there's nothing to stop you from starting up your own not-for-profit organization devoted to researching and publishing Aikido history.

Two separate issues. Your first comment you obviously find sillya and not realistic. It also does not relate to the specifics of the thread. However, in an attempt to address your comment I will say that Sony is a public company, actually owned by a loose consortium of its shareholders. This means that there is oversight, accountability and transparency; along with outside organizations that will prosecute should there be any provable improprieties. With regards to your second comment, I already have started a non-profit to which I contribute quite a bit of time, get paid no salary and donated large sums of money compared to my salary. However, my goal is not to publish anything, per se, but rather give people an opportunity to experience Aikido and other Asian cultural pursuits who might not otherwise be able to do so. However, even if I, or anyone else did decide to take you up on your offer, that would not amend what I see is the issue with a large amount of materials that should be made part of the Aikido communities heritage being owned by one group with their own particular agenda.
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
So, you would prefer that someone (not yourself) lay out the money for producing and distributing the videos, but that you should be free to copy them as you please?

Chris, I never said that, or anything that could be construed as such. As I have said before, if you have something to say to me, feel free to do so, publicly or in private. To address the issue though, non-profits have ways to cover production expenses, salaries, overhead, etc. Believe you me, should Aikido Journal voluntarily choose to move to a non-profit model, I would be one of the first to volunteer my time and donate my money. When they requested individuals to transpose the old PDF files into text files, I not only volunteered to do so, but with the ones that were Interviews with Seiseki Abe Sensei, I offered to go back an revisit them with him to do follow ups. Yeah, that would have been in Japan, and at my own expense.
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
If you feel that way than why aren't you producing and packaging Aikido images and videos out of your own pocket and distributing them under an open-source license?

Again, I never said that this is the way I see to rectify the problem over at Aikido Journal. However, addressing the issue, what might I have that anyone would really want to see, free or otherwise?
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Morihei Ueshiba participated in quite a few for-profit ventures. Books and film distributed by the founder were sold for-profit while he was alive. In fact, he made a pretty good living off of Aikido. Good enough for kaiso, but not for anybody else?

Of course anyone should be able to "sell themselves" towards whatever gain or goal that they see fit. But this is not really what is going on, is it? After all, the Founder didn't exactly give his permission for anyone to sell 29 minute videos of himself for $49.95, did he? WELL DID HE? Even so, that doesn't mean that a museum who housed the archived materials wouldn't do the same thing. As a matter of fact, I am sure that they would. However, they would use the money to create multimedia displays that one could go and see for themselves for a small donation in a place that would be the metaphoric Mecca of Aikido. Perhaps it would take someone outside of Japan to create something so powerful that it would encourage the Ueshiba Family and the Aikikai to open up their own archives of long-hidden or questionable material to the public. I think it would do much to create a more human image of the Founder and let people do their own research with all of the facts instead of only the ones they want us to know.

In closing and in an effort to raise the level of the thread, I think it important that we don't fall victim to any emotions that may arise when we discuss issues of hidden agendas. Also, that we don't shift the focus merely to who is right and who is wrong. This will help ensure that we may have a straight forward discussion of this very important issue. The future of Aikido is at stake, whether we believe it or not.


.

Chris Li 09-02-2005 03:55 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Two separate issues. Your first comment you obviously find sillya and not realistic. It also does not relate to the specifics of the thread.

Sure it does. That is, my point was that there's nothing wrong with a company (public or private) operating for profit, and if I don't like their approach to business then I'm free to start up my own organization (public, private, or non-profit) and compete in the marketplace like everybody else.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Of course anyone should be able to "sell themselves" towards whatever gain or goal that they see fit. But this is not really what is going on, is it? After all, the Founder didn't exactly give his permission for anyone to sell 29 minute videos of himself for $49.95, did he? WELL DID HE?

Well, videos weren't around at the time, but he (or his son) certainly gave permission for certain materials to be sold for profit while he was alive, so I guess that the answer would be "yes". Are you implying that Aikido Journal is stealing copyrighted material?

Best,

Chris

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-02-2005 04:07 PM

Best case scenario for the preservation of Aikido Materials
 
Clark, thanks for participating in the thread. I would like to address each one of your comments in hopes of starting a larger dialogue.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
You guys have to know that Stan Pranin has a family to support

Well, we all do. This is not even part of the issue. Mentioning it here does nothing to discuss creating a separation of archival materials from individuals who have interests of a academic/economic (where one is tied to the other) nature.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
...and Aikido is his livelihood.

It is? I thought making money off of others who do aikido is his livelihood. I don't have a problem with the latter, so again, that is not the issue being discussed here.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
He has dedicated himself for many years accumulating material on Aikido that would be long dead without him.

Yes he has. No one is discussing taking any credit away from anyone deserving any credit. This is an issue of preservation over perversion.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
Much of it he gives away for free in the archives and in the day to day operation of the website (the maintenance of which, in and of itself, costs good money)

The costs associated with managing a website are minimal, especially these days where co-location costs are ridiculously minimal, and there are always younger and more talented kids coming up who will manage, update and produce a better site - FOR FREE just to have a relevant headline item at the top of their resume. He could easily hire college interns, as do many companies as another example. However, if he simply hawked his own products (where he is the person in the video) or gave reasonable access for others to hawk theirs (for a small fee or percentage) again, this would be a better scenario that would do well to reduce the apparent conflict of interest that abounds there.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
but he does have to sell some DVD's once in a while to pay the bills. And you must admit, there is no better quality material to be found anywhere.

Given the apparent success of the misnamed Aiki-Expo (should be Aikido Journal Expo) if he simply focused on producing his breakthrough events, I am sure he could profit considerably, all without the controversy raised by his support of particular individuals, groups and organizations over others.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
His website is one of the primary hangouts of Aikido people, who don't represent an enormous market in the first place.

I do believe that many people purchase products available there without participating in the forums or reading the opinionated materials put forth by the site owner or his cronies - not that all who post blogs there are cronies, but there is a undeniable connection between (emotionally) supported bloggers and the economic benefit that comes along with it.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
Where else would you expect Stan to market his products?

This is an effort to discern proper ownership of the archival materials of the Founder and his direct disciples. It is clear that there is current ownership. However whether the current situation is the best possible scenario is the question being discussed in the thread.
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
He is as class an act as you're likely to find, and I think some of us need to reassess his contribution to our art, and cut the guy some slack.

The same could be said of the current and former president of the United States, but it isn't, is it? No one gets slack because while on the face of things there may be an air of class, or what have you. However, dig a bit deeper and you will always find a mélange of motivations that could be debated till the cows come home, so again, this is not a personal assassination of an individual, but a conversation of how possibly to better manage the important job that he took on with the best of intentions.


Clark, I would be interested in knowing what you see as the best case scenario for creating and managing a permanent and public archive where Aikidoka and prospective or interested parties would be able to go and view all the available materials - a place unencumbered by the opinions of academics and the like, whether they be with or without financial motivations.



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Mashu 09-02-2005 04:33 PM

Re: Predictable decline in detectable reality (i.e. when manipulated truth becomes fact)
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
In any case these are just my thoughts, opinions and ideas on the matter. Mashu since you asked the question what are your thoughts on the matter?

Me? :)

Well, as I said before it is hard for me to tell how important any on-line organization really is. I have seen many times that information on sites like Aikido Journal, Aikido FAQ, and others are used as references to support the arguments of people who put forth their views on Aikido. For those people and those that read their opinions the information on those sites are probably where their inquiry stops. So in theory those sites that put out info on Aikido and it's particulars could have a great impact like you said.

In reading other types of history I often see that erroneous things develop a life of their own and thrive for a long time. This further disconnects people from being able to understand what happened and why things are why they are. So I do appreciate why you would like to see various organizations open their archives so everyone can have the opportunity to correct their misinterpretations and fill in whatever areas are blank for them. Maybe this would save Aikido from being like a dead religion with empty rituals, lost practices, and passive believers.

As far as certain people giving over the materials that they have taken the time and expense to accumulate to some sort of open not-for-profit organization I don't know that that is all that fair or useful. In order to try to better understand certain things I have had to search out certain materials that are no longer available and pay for them as well as travel to get them in some cases. I appreciate these things quite a bit more than some material I can just buy at a store or get from the library. The searching itself was a good thing. Throwing things like that out for free to the public might rob them of certain experiences. It's not like there are hordes of Aikido people surrounding the Aikikai foundation HQ or Aikido Journal's offices with torches trying to force their way through barricades to get at those materials anyway.

If people are withholding things in their private collections and are distorting the facts then others should openly challenge them. With the technology available today it's pretty easy to do. If you build enough pressure they will have to do something and they will either have to reveal their source material or run away.

Somethings to think about anyway. Thanks. :)

Rupert Atkinson 09-02-2005 05:16 PM

Re: Aikido Journal
 
I have always taught Aikido for free but that is because I have always had a job. I am not professional in the Aikido business sense. But if I decided to make a living through Aikido, then I would have to becoime professional to earn enough to survive. There is nothing wrong with earning money in Aikido or any art. Go to Japan or Korea and you'll see that is what most are doing. I don't seee AJ as commercialist - I see it as a source of good info and Aikido related products. I paid the subscription and enjoy the articles. It's normal - get over it.

Misogi-no-Gyo 09-02-2005 05:18 PM

Creation of a permanent and public Aikido Museum
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Sure it does. That is, my point was that there's nothing wrong with a company (public or private) operating for profit, and if I don't like their approach to business then I'm free to start up my own organization (public, private, or non-profit) and compete in the marketplace like everybody else.

Chris, I know I am not the first one to tell you this, but there is no competition in O-Sensei's Aikido... knowing that, I am not the least bit interested in competing with anyone, nor in others competing, nor promoting competition at all. For me that would defeat the promise of and what is available through Aikido. That very fact is what motivated me to begin this inquiry in the first place.

What this is about is the best way to preserve and make these limited and precious commodities available to the Aikido community as a whole, along with who should be, or how best to select a caretaker for these things. I believe that if there was an independent, unbiased group (unfortunately, due to their own potential conflict of interest, one outside of the Aikikai) that there would be motivation for people to come out of the woodwork and donate their materials to create a living legacy accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they could afford it or not.

Since you obviously have a problem with me I will take myself out of the discussion of the issue and ask "Do you see a problem with the idea of creating a permanent, publicly accessible and publicly controlled repository whose directorship is charged with establishing an unbiased center for the benefit of the Aikido community of today and future generations? If you do have a problem with it, please state what it is, and if so, to also take the time to state what your ideas are and how they are both an improvement on mine and the current situation that forces this conversation to come up in the first place.
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:
Well, videos weren't around at the time, but he (or his son) certainly gave permission for certain materials to be sold for profit while he was alive, so I guess that the answer would be "yes". Are you implying that Aikido Journal is stealing copyrighted material?

Chris, I think it pretty clear by now that I don't mince words. I am clear and straight to the point, although I do sometimes soften my words in an attempt not to offend. If I wanted to imply stealing, I would have said stealing, cut and dry, as I did with those responsible for stealing my copyrighted logo. Of course, I was banned for asking on Aikido Journal if that was okay with others in the Aikido community, but that is only a peripheral issue, and not the main thrust of this thread.

As for your implication, I can't possibly know who gave permission, nor the reasons why permission was given, nor the circumstances under which it was given, nor the monetary arrangements, if any between the parties. I am very interested in knowing these things, but alas, try asking and see where you get. If you do get anywhere, please let us know. If you believe, as do I, that you wouldn't get very far, then at least step up and give us that much by reporting this back to the thread.

I am trying to encourage an emotionally free discussion of how best to serve the future of the Aikido community. If you would like to talk about that, I encourage you to keep posting. If you are merely interested in posting "implications" in the form of questions rather than discuss the need for, or the benefit of an Aikido Museum (for lack of a better name), then I kindly request you refrain from stoking the emotional fires, so to speak. Of course, you could do both, and even be a bit sarcastic and that would be fine by me, but to do the former without the latter is just not appropriate given the seriousness of the subject matter.

In any case your participation has moved the thread forward, for which I do offer my sincere thanks.



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Sanshouaikikai 09-02-2005 05:47 PM

Re: Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido
 
Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Hey, did you see my "secret Systema tatoo or find my top-secret communist decoder ring? I thought I had that well-hidden in my underwear drawer. So I ask you straight out, Mr. Rodriguez, "What were you doing in my underwear drawer?" and say to you, "Stay outta my drawers, for Pete's sake!"

As for Jesus, you best check your facts... I think the saying goes something like, "He died for you, you live for him..." I do believe the answer to the question, "What possible good would dying for him be?" is entirely another thread...


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What...the facts about Jesus that you got from the Da Vinci Code!? LOLOLOL!!! Oh no...I'm sorry...better yet...the Jesus Seminar! I got my facts about The Lord pretty well...It's you whom I'm concerned about. As for Communism...I'm not a communist anymore. However...I still lean just a tad bit socialist at times on economic issues...but other than that...I'm one crazy conservative and proud of it! However....glad to hear you're honest about being a comrade...I thought I used to be the only one when I was truly one...but...I dunno...you just can't make people share if they don't want to, you know?


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