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-   -   Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura?? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8730)

Terry Donaghe 08-16-2005 02:37 PM

Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Hi all,

I'm testing for my 5th kyu (USAF) in a couple of weeks and I was going over the list of requirements with my wife last night (she's already 5th kyu). On the list is Tsuki Kotegaeshi omote and ura. The way we always practice in class - we do it with a tenkan, grabbing the hand, stretching out and then doing the technique. How the heck do you do an ura version of that?

She had no idea and didn't remember testing for that back in February. I don't think I've seen it or I just can't visualize it.

Can anyone spare a clue? Either way, I'll find out tonight in class and do a followup...

Thanks!

markwalsh 08-16-2005 02:45 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Terry,

It's different in different place so ask your instructor not a bunch of geeks at computers :)

As I understand it, KG is normally done ura (to the rear) with a tenkan. It can be done omote with a tenkan though too. Some places differentiate this way, others by the size of the tenkan, or by doing another tenkan or an irimi movement after the first blending tenkan - on the ura side.

Hope that helps some, can't do any of them myself.

Anyone got pictures handy?

Mark

Terry Donaghe 08-16-2005 02:48 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Ok - maybe what we're doing is already ura - but in that case I'm not sure what the omote version would be, unless it's just spinng around another time, but that doesn't seem right either. Oh well, I'll find out tonight. Just pre-test jitters.

akiy 08-16-2005 03:02 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Kotegaeshi omote usually starts with an irimi to the "inside" of the tsuki (with an atemi to the face) -- kind of like the opening footwork to yokomenuchi shihonage. The footwork is also very similar to iriminage omote as well. Yes, this sort of question is probably best handled by asking your instructor...

-- Jun

aikigirl10 08-16-2005 03:32 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
I always thought that omote tsuki kote gaeshi was done by just simply doing a walking step to the inside. This would put you in Ai hamni (spelling?) And then you do Kote Gaeshi from there. Ura you do the tenkan. Thats what i think if i remember correctly.

Check with your sensei!
Paige

Janet Rosen 08-16-2005 04:26 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
I have learned two very different footwork/body movement patterns for what is called the omote/ura versions of this from training in two different schools, so YES you really have to find out what YOUR dojo expects to see!

Dirk Hanss 08-16-2005 05:48 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Wanna be totally confused?
When we do the omote, we do the same tenkan to take the hand and then step again in front of uke (omote) to do the kotegaeshi - at least at 5Th kyu testing level.

Regards Dirk

crbateman 08-16-2005 06:02 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Many schools determine omote or ura based on the direction and positions of the final movement. You might tenkan and "catch" the punch in the same manner for both versions, but omote or ura may be based on what you do from there, be it pulling uke around to the rear by his attacking arm and throwing him (ura), or by stepping back to his front and throwing him there (omote). There are numerous other variations, and perhaps your instructor prefers his own interpretation. This is why you should speak to him/her or to a senior student for the preferred way(s). Do not be afraid to ask your teacher these questions directly, as all knowledge begins with the words "I don't know".

giriasis 08-16-2005 08:34 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
Terry,

I wanted to second Janet, it really is best to ask someone in your dojo what your sensei wants to see. I'm USAF, too and train with Peter Bernath, we're Eastern Region. I'll try and help you.

The key whether something is omote or ura is the end of the technique -- at least for the USAF. Think of which direction are you going around uke? If you go behind, it is ura and if you go in front, it is omote. You can open with tenkan and then end with omote. To figure this out -- say you do a tenkan, then stretch the uke out and to the technique. When you do the technique do you step in front of uke or do you step behind the uke? If you want to do ura after a tenkan you need to step back with your front foot, the uke will go backwards. You're taking uke's balance backwards in this ura version. If you are doing omote after a tenkan, I believe you will stetch them out and then step forward with your front foot at an angle in front of uke. Here you will be taking uke's balance forwards in this omote version.

Of course what I just wrote makes sense, to me. If it makes no sense to you, then that is really why you need to ask someone senior than you or your sensei.

rob_liberti 08-17-2005 07:21 AM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
For the omote version, try the following.
Do you best irimi-tenkan entrance and get to the typical position (you should have had the "option" to hit the uke on the way to that place). Tap the striking arm almost like you are dribbling a basket ball. If your entrance is timed well they should still have some power going forward and their arm should bounce just a bit back up from your tap. That is a cool thing to feel, because if you nuture that connection, it will make things a lot easier for you. Avoid grabbing and yanking their arm toward you or pushing it down, instead touch them and drop you hara a bit while you lengthen your arm forward and away from where you are standing. They will start to drop into a hole. (I do this as I'm completing my tenkan). Before they hit the bottom of that hole, "roll" (more like a rocking chair rocks forward really) your hand from hand-blade across your palm towards your thumbnail and continue guiding them forward, down, and now a bit back towards where you are standing. It has to be an arc of you will fight against the motion. If you catch them like this, you can move omote or ura from there without much resistance. I typically start to roll my hand in the oposite direction when I want to start leading them to the position to fall. The main thing is that you basically draw their arm away from their center, and then drive it right back into their center - but steer it away at the last second using your "other hand" (the cross lateral one) so that they fall instead. I hope this makes sense. If not, thanks for trying to follow my crazy verbal explanation. (It's much easier to just show someone and say do it like this.)

Rob

Terry Donaghe 08-17-2005 10:30 AM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
THanks for all the suggestions everyone! One thing that I really love about Aikido is that there's not very many definite things. There's so many different ways to do every single technique, and some techniques have very different names according to which "style" of aikido you practice.

Anyways, I asked my sensei last night after class, and his take is for omote and ura (as opposed to the tenkan version) to tenshin with my front foot, and grab under uke's fist and twist kind of like the beginning of shihonage and turn uke out of the way while applying the kotegaeshi grab and then either stepping in front of uke and doing the throw for omote or behind and tenkaning for the ura. It makes sense, kinda. I'll have to practice.

The other amusing bit is that when I looked at the big USAF poster listing the testing requirements, for tsuki kotegaeshi, it justs lists tenkan - not omote and ura. But, since I asked and since sensei spent some time to show me after class, I get the feeling I had better be prepared to do that during the test. :D

Thanks again everyone! It's really cool to see different takes on how to do this!

BC 08-17-2005 12:14 PM

Re: Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura??
 
You should really just ask Glen, and I'm sure he would clarify it for you. I believe the omote version is done without the full pivot after the tenkan, while the ura is with a full pivot after you tenkan. I could be wrong though. Good luck on your test.


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