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-   -   Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8582)

AikiWeb System 07-24-2005 12:30 AM

Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of July 24, 2005:

Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

Kevin Leavitt 07-24-2005 12:37 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
No, just followed and understood by the instructor/sensei. Probably the less said the better in most instances. Talk is cheap, actions are what counts. (which is why my post count is now over 600! :))

Dirk Hanss 07-24-2005 01:07 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class
 
I voted YES, while NO is as right as well, if there are no steps in between allowed.

Main exercise is action, learning by doing, or however you call it. Recently we had a special lesson about earth (gravity stability), water ("fill the vacuum", redirect instead of power against power), air (breath and "tornado-whirls"), fire and spirit.

Well on "fire" and "spirit", we mudansha just got told the idea,no lessons :yuck:, but at least it shows a different aspect ofthe aspect and although it is just another explanation for the physical and psychical logic, it is much easier to get and keep in mind for training. So I would say, it should not be too much, but from time to time you should talk about the philosophy. Another aspect is to bore those poeple who want to use aikido for stret fighting. They either quit - unfortunately they learn other efficient techniques, or they get a bit of the idea, which might improve their habit. ;)


Dirk

malsmith 07-24-2005 01:14 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
i think for the most part classes should be filled with doing techniques and practicing, but every once in a while i really enjoy when we all just have a sit down and talk about philosophy and the meaning of things behind the techniques.

Lachlan Kadick 07-24-2005 04:09 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I could not answer this, because in order to teach, it requires a certain amount of both spoken, and physical teaching. Some of my students would never be able to grasp what their problems are, without some asistance verbally.

Charles Hill 07-24-2005 09:59 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Yes, for it is the philosophy and only the philosophy that distinguishes Aikido from other martial arts.

Charles Hill

Jeanne Shepard 07-24-2005 11:16 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
It is by observing what the instructor is doing and following it that I think we show we understand.

Jeanne

Yann Golanski 07-25-2005 02:48 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I voted "no" on the simple reason that there is no one Aikido philosophy that everyone can agree... Then again, there are no techniques that everyone agree are true Aikido... Then again, there is no such thing as true Aikido...

So, what would be the core of values that all styles of Aikido practice?....

happysod 07-25-2005 03:20 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Voted no for the simple reason that I object to wasting valuable and limited mat time with talking - there's always time to talk outside the dojo

Paul Kerr 07-25-2005 07:50 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I voted no for a number of reasons:
- no single, agreed upon definition of "aikido philosophy" within the aikido community
- too many half-baked interpretations around anyway!
- I go to the dojo to train technique. If I want to explore the philosophy it's incumbent upon me to investigate that in my own time

billybob 07-25-2005 09:43 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I voted no. As a teenager i talked about how judo made the rest of life make sense to me. Some religious friends informed me my viewpoints were 'zen buddhism'. i had no idea what that was, but did not argue. my sensei taught us judo - the philosophy is implied and comes to us intuitively - 'from our feet'.

i bluster and spew and have an advanced education, so realizing the value of intuition that is common to all of us, is wonderful!
----------------------
Yann Golanski ased "So, what would be the core of values that all styles of Aikido practice?...."

the only principle i feel i can hold onto (almost) all of the time is 'gentleness'.

Charles Hill 07-25-2005 12:44 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
there is no one Aikido philosophy that everyone can agree... Then again, there are no techniques that everyone agree are true Aikido... Then again, there is no such thing as true Aikido.

I understand this and agree with it. However, there is the Founder's philosophy and techniques. To me, the is "true" Aikido.

Charles

maikerus 07-25-2005 06:43 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Every technique is an explicit discussion of Aikido philosophy.

I didn't actually vote because I don't know what philosophy we are talking about. To me there should be a thread that binds all the techniques together, but to me this thread is a list of principles like "Always push, never pull" and "Maintain your balance through every part of the technique" and "Don't overextend your arms" ... etc ... which are the principles/philosophy we should be practicing with every technique.

So....its explicit. But its not necessarily in any spoken language.

FWIW...

--Michael

Eric Webber 07-26-2005 09:51 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I think aikido tends to be a little more than meets the eye, therefore a little explanation tends to help in the process, especially for us denser folks in the crowd.

Creature_of_the_id 07-27-2005 05:27 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
I voted no because, discussion on the philosophy can be done anywhere... such as the pub afterwards.
Aikido techniques can only be done safely in the limited time you have available on the mat.

Joe Bowen 07-27-2005 07:57 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Yes, for it is the philosophy and only the philosophy that distinguishes Aikido from other martial arts.
Charles Hill

The "Philosophy of Aikido" is the Neo-Classical Philosophy of the Samurai. The "Life-Giving Sword" and "Budo is loving protection" are not new concepts in Japanese martial arts, and you could also expand that to include some non-Japanese martial arts. Aikido is a great martial art, beyond any doubt, but it has other characteristics that distinguish it other than its philosophy. The best way to transmit philosophy is through example. How you act and live speaks volumes more than what you say. The best methodology IMHO is to utilize the mat time for practice and practical explanations of technique and save the philosophical discussions for social opportunities after or before class.

Charles Hill 07-27-2005 08:27 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class
 
Quote:

Joseph Bowen wrote:
Aikido is a great martial art, beyond any doubt, but it has other characteristics that distinguish it other than its philosophy.

I respectfully disagree. Part of my realization of this came from reading Karl Friday's book, Legacies of the Sword. A lot of what I though were technical properties of Aikido are also found in Kashima Shin Ryu and probably a lot of other "ryu" that I don't know about. I also found a book with 400 year old Dutch prints depicting people doing Ikkyo, Iriminage and Shihonage. It has become clear to me that what differentiates Aikido is why we practice and the results O'Sensei hoped we might have.

I don't think that what is commonly thought of as Aikido philosophy is actually part of O'Sensei's thought. In my personal definition, aikido philosophy is Morihei Ueshiba's thought. This needs to be discovered in the books, Takemusu Aiki and Aiki Shinzui. These are incredibly difficult to understand, so I have found John Stevens' books very helpful. However, what I have found even more helpful are the lecture and practice sessions given by Stevens Sensei, Endo Seishiro Sensei and the current Doshu.

I realize that this is just an opinion. Also, my opinions change, to tomorrow I may think differently. However, my answer to the poll is an emphatic "yes." Otherwise, in my opinion, people won't understand why they are supposed to be practicing. Of course, my whole argument is based on my opinion that the whole focus of Aikido practice is to understand the founder's teachings. Most people don't seem to think that way and to them, talking is probably a waste of time. Perfectly understandable.

Sorry about the length,
Charles

billybob 07-28-2005 07:01 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
"In my personal definition, aikido philosophy is Morihei Ueshiba's thought." - Charles Hill

Mr. Hill,

I balk at this. I think OSensei found universal truths, and encourages us to do the same. I'm not Japanese, was a non combatant in the military, but I can discover the same truth OSensei did. But if I cling to 'his thoughts', I won't be able to see past them.

Clear as mud I trust, but I tried.

Yann Golanski 07-28-2005 07:53 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Morihei Ueshiba's thoughts and Aikido changed over the years. In hell dojo and in Iwama, Ueshiba was practicing two very different arts.... So, if he had the Truth, which time was that?... Just when he died? Before he went senile? After or before hell dojo?... Does it even matters?

...

Chef CJ 07-28-2005 08:33 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Aikido to the individual is different for each of us but as with all things, the foundation must be firmly instilled before anything else can be accomplished. Aikido is not just a physical technique, it also requires at least some further more philosophical understanding to grasp the entire foundation. Examples of this would to me include ki extension, sincerity in the uke/ nage relationship, etc. etc.

These are not tangble or necessarily easily learned and require more than just good physical movement.

That is my bit on the subject. Thanks for the time to join in.

CJ

Joe Bowen 07-28-2005 08:55 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Quote:

Charles Moulton wrote:
Aikido is not just a physical technique, it also requires at least some further more philosophical understanding to grasp the entire foundation. Examples of this would to me include ki extension, sincerity in the uke/ nage relationship, etc. etc. These are not tangible or necessarily easily learned and require more than just good physical movement. CJ

Good points CJ, but I have to disagree with the assessment that ki extension, and sincerity in the uke/nage relationship are philosophical and not physical. Sure you can say that you have to define the parameters in which we operate on the mat, but is this necessarily philosophical? Some people get rather good extensions without even knowing what ki is.
Physical manifestations of the philosophical ideal in aikido can be duplicated without extensive knowledge of the philosophy. Does it lose something? Perhaps. But, on the mat you practice the physical, and if you're serious, and your students are serious, you will gasp snatches of the philosophical which ought to prompt more serious discussions after class.

Charles Hill 07-28-2005 08:59 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Hi David,

Please call me Charles. If you say Mr. Hill, I look around for my dad. Two points. the first and most important is that my whole post is my opinion, there is no reason to balk. Second is, I would like to ask you and Yann for where you got your information. What are these universal truths that O'Sensei found and where does it say that he encouraged us to do the same? I have noticed that a lot of things are put in his mouth that if you read material directly quoted from him and documented the other stuff rings false. Also, Yann, my study has shown me that O'Sensei really didn't change much over the years. aikido Journal has some great stuff, interview and articles showing that the "hell dojo" and Iwama were not that different. does it matters? well, it does to me, but I'm known to be a little weird.

Charles

Yann Golanski 07-29-2005 02:56 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Second is, I would like to ask you and Yann for where you got your information.

I got my information from books on Aikido, mainly Nariyama's, Albright's and Ueshiba's. Plus things that I have gathered over the years on this board. talking to other Aikidoka and articles. Sadly, I don't have the time to do proper references for all the post I write.

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Also, Yann, my study has shown me that Osensei really didn't change much over the years. aikido Journal has some great stuff, interview and articles showing that the "hell dojo" and Iwama were not that different.

Are you telling me that a man in his 30s and a man in his 70s can do the same level of physical training? Or are you saying that Ueshiba never changed anything from day one when the Kami enlightened him with Aikido? ...

Evolution is a good thing. Otherwise, we still would be in caves hitting eachother with clubs -- Now, we live in big concreeted steel block and have M1 Abrams tanks to blow the hell of out each other. COOL!!! *grins evilly*.

Okay, seriously now. The only core value of Aikido I have seen between all the people who practice it is: Blend with the attacker and thrown or pin said attacker so that no harm is done to either parties. I'd add that there are maybe 20/25 Aikido techniques (with hundred of application) and that this makes "Aikido". Different styles have different emphasis, that's all.

Of course, anyone can define Aikido to be exactly what they are doing for whatever reasons. *shrugs* I don't really care.

billybob 07-29-2005 09:35 AM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Charles,

Yann did a good job describing aikido.

To answer your 'what is my source' question, my position is a bit more tenuous. I get the universal truths from my own heart. A universal truth can be "be nice to uke - it's his turn next".

So, when OSensei writes a poem describing the 'flying bridge' in the 'cross-shape' and says it is compassion - i take him to mean that truth transcends rational discussion - and if you are gentle with uke - you can throw him much more easily!

My position may be nastiest ego you ever heard. But maybe not.

Charles Hill 07-29-2005 05:25 PM

Re: Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"?
 
Hi,

Yes, I definitely think that O'Sensei did not change all that much from the time of his first enlightenment experience. Recently there was an interesting interview featured at aikidojournal.com with one of the hell dojo members. What she said of the founder at that time exactly paralleled what his post-war students said. Also, photos and films show that his technique did not change, except for allowing for the inevitable effects of old age. This, for Morihei Ueshiba, was in his 80's, so yes, I think he moved similarly in his 70's as in his 30's, perhaps better.

David, when O'Sensei wrote or said "floating bridge," it had specific philosophical meaning. (Probably stretching the meaning of the word, philosophical) It is not so easy to understand, and requires knowledge of Japanese creation myths and how they were thought of by people belonging to groups such as Omoto Kyo and Misogikai. I do not think that one can just read them and expect to understand them. Then there is the problem of how that idea relates to practice. I believe that that needs to be addressed during practice. Remember, O'Sensei, devoted large amounts of practice time to lecturing about esoteric matters, not just when he was old, but throughout his life.

Charles


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