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-   -   takedown in iriminage (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855)

arvin m. 05-06-2001 02:14 AM

takedown in iriminage
 
thought id start another thread. This question has been buggin me for sometime. When i once executed an iriminage(i think it was from ai hanmi...) on a new white belt, he was extremely tense, so much so that i couldnt bring him to the ground when i grabbed his neck and tried to do so. My sensei once activated some nerve points on the back of my neck(see my previous post on pressure points..) and shoved m to the ground, but i do not hink that this is the key. Is the trick to this technique doing a fast tenkan turn so that your uke is drawn by your momentum and moves in a circle. I can't seem to effectively control my uke as such...so i was wondering if anyone could help me. Also, how da hell do u apply iriminage on a 6 foot giant(unless of course he's charging at u to try to take u down with a rugby tackle, in which case i believe iriminage would beuatifully blend with his momentum...right?)

ze'ev erlich 05-06-2001 03:37 AM

Re: takedown in iriminage
 
Uke has do understand his/her role when practicing Iriminage.
As you make Uke turn and redirect his power downwards, he naturally wants to get back and have his back straight. As he tries to get back we use his power to throw him.
Stubborn Uke shows that he does not understand yet the natural reactions and the way Aikido techniques should be practiced.
please look at the way Ueshiba (three generations) execute Iriminage.

yours

Ze'ev
Aikikan
Israel


guest1234 05-06-2001 05:46 AM

i am sooo terrible at this technique (and well, most others too) but i can say what i think from an uke view point. it seems a bit more effective on me when nage is not thinking about moving me down, as much as moving me around and in (close to nage) with a touch of down, then just at the throw a little down, up, and down. i think that approach might also work better with the giant ukes, who i also think need to know to lower their center rather than bend over at the waist (which is begging for kaiten nage in my book). But just grabbing the head/neck/other body part on me when i'm uke, and pushing down seems to just 'pin' me to the mat, stopping me from moving---of course, i'm usually a lot lighter than my nage.
i think of it like a satellite being pulled into a planet's orbit, swung around, and 'sling shot' out the other side, with the little down-up-down at the end to direct the relased energy. anyway, it feels better to me, but i am a beginner....

Greg Jennings 05-06-2001 10:48 AM

A Different Tack
 
We don't use the spiral down, twisty/turny irimi nage very much. Rather one more direct.

Instead of controlling uke's neck and leading him forward and around, we use the back of the collar (or a handful of hair or whatever) to unbalance uke straight to the rear then step through for the throw.

Another trick that we use is to apply atemi to uke's face or ribs in order to generate an opening to apply the technique the way we want.

If the attack is appropriate, a "hook" punch to uke's face with nage's trailing arm works very well.

I like doing it this way because it slows things down and helps me control uke's actions. It's amazing how compliant uke's are with their mind scrambled from that middle knuckle shot in their face.

As always, there is no right way and no wrong way; just different ways and that's cool.

Regards,

darin 05-06-2001 08:46 PM

Try this variation,

Against right lunge punch.

breaking balance:

When you step in block the attack then pull your opponents head to your right shoulder. If you can, apply pressure with your finger to the pressure point under his left ear lobe. Remember to pull sideways not forward or back. From there bring your other hand up to tightly come under his chin. You want to kind of choke him as you turn around. While he is off balance point the elbow of the choking arm up and with the other hand push into his lower back. He should then drop to the floor.

Other way to break the balance is when blocking attacker's arm, spin into his elbow. What I mean is you push his arm down and position the elbow on your chest or whatever then push into it with your body while bending it back with your right arm.

Things to remember are always keeping your opponent off balance. Soon as his foot is off the ground throw! Secondly remember the principle of the neck and lower back. If you push the chin up and down like dunking a basketball while pushing his lower back you will force his feet to go out from under him.

If he is very strong then you can kick his leg out as you throw or go into a choke or you can hold on tight and throw your body in front of him (sutemi waza). Once taken down you can continue your choke.

Good luck!

aarjan 05-07-2001 01:39 AM

Hi, here are my two cents:
1. If you're uke is a beginner, don't go too fast. If a newby uke feels some control he becomes more confident. Remember that a lot of newbies are only thinking about which feet to back first when they fall and keep their head up and lot's of other thinks they have remember while falling.

2. If the uke is bigger, don't pull his head down with force. I'm 6'4'' and someone is pulling my head down I stop dead centre. This is a natural reaction especially for a newby uke who maybe doesn't understand what's happening.

3. Don't go into those pressure point things on newbies, but instead ask him why he stops and explain his role to him (again and maybe again). Use more experienced people to play with pressure points. It's fun isn't it 8^)

Luck to you all,

Aarjan

ian 05-07-2001 06:42 AM

If you want to be really mean;

facing uke cup the side of his neck with your left hand. Then push the top right (your right) of his forehead towards the bottom left (i.e. just beyond his neck).

Push down (NB this could be quite dangerous so take care).

Usually puts them down quite quickly - but doesn't work if they are very tall.

Ian

arvin m. 05-08-2001 03:18 AM

thanx a lot guys makes tons of sense
except ian i didnt quite catch what yer driving at...perhaps a little more details and illustrations might help...sorry feeling stoopid...

andrew 05-08-2001 07:13 AM

After a couple of years, this guy joined our dojo who helped me, and suddenly it all made sense.
If a beginner can resist, you do have some problems, because they shouldn't know where to resist.
Try:
1. From ai-hanmi katatedori, say his right on yours, move in so his neck in within reach of your left hand. Flip your right face up so you can bring it to his right elbow, catch his elbow (with your thumb down) and push it away from you and into him. This generates a torque that pushes him off balance. If he comes back around when you take his neck, it's easy. If he resists, he should be unbalanced enough that a gentle tug behind will bring him down, and he'll follow next time so you can do the complete technique.

2: With your thoub down, when you come around (taking their neck) you can bring people down really easily to their knees through bringing their elbow down. Of course, if they don't know to try and get up, there's not a lot you can do.

3: At the final throw, remember what you're doing. Don't try and push him over, go up at the front of his head to force the back down.

Pressure point etc. are all well and fine, but you need to be able to unbalance without them too. Some people don't respond so strongly to pressure points, but they're always subject to gravity.

andrew

arvin m. 05-08-2001 08:12 AM

makes a lot of sense adrew really does
are u telling me to push his elbow into him as i would for the takedowns in ikkyo for instance...cuz i didnt quite understand the right face uppart but i think what u mean is to do something like what we do in ikko or nikkyo or sankyo yaddadadada for that matter to floor the opponent by turning his elbow toward the ground sort of yes?

BC 05-08-2001 11:10 AM

All good points above. I'd just add to the point that often new practitioners need to be educated on the correct ukemi on techniques like iriminage. My sempai once pointed out to me that the safest place for uke in iriminage is for uke to to try to place his head into nage's upper chest (just below the shoulder) after their balance is taken. The reason is that this prevents nage from really clocking uke with an atemi or "clothes-lining" him. This thinking kind of follows along the perception of aikido techniques as being a continuim of potential atemi (well described by Ellis Amdur), hence, uke should always be seeking the safest positions and movements to minimize this "danger." Not exactly wimpy compliance, but really more an exercise in awareness of the nuances in aikido technique. Just my two cents (again).

guest1234 05-09-2001 12:01 AM

funny you should mention uke moving his head in close to nage's chest, as that is what i was taught at my first two dojos, but at my current one they teach that uke should drop down low and away from nage, which makes me a bit fearful of a knee to the face, but that could just be the teaching of my first two dojos expressing itself. certainly it is easier to clothesline uke if they are further out, as i've found out here where they hold me at arms length while i'm trying to move in close--the bigger ones succeed at keeping me further out, and then complete the technique with an arm into my neck. ouch.well, each school has it's own approach, and i'm perfecting the ability to get close to even the really big nages---pain is a great motivator.

andrew 05-09-2001 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arvin m.
u telling me to push his elbow into him as i would for the takedowns in ikkyo for instance...
Now I'm not sure what you mean!

Place your elbow against your body with your arm bent (so your elbow is against the very bottom of your ribs). Imagine your elbow is pushed into your centre and accross the front of your body simultaneously. Your head will start to lean over (towards where nage would be in the technique) and your balance will be less.
andrew


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