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-   -   ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ?? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8539)

Roy 07-16-2005 11:28 AM

?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
"The bigger they are, the harder they fall." I can just see it, a 130-160 pound Aikidoka not backing away from a 275+ pound attacker(or multiple attackers), and seriously getting hurt; because falsely he/she felt their Aikido would shield them. I would like to pose a few questions that I have been sort of wondering/concerned with. Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)? "In general," might saying this give a false confidence to the average Aikidoka? Just a concluding thought, In most confrontations its not just about the moves you can make, but what you can take.

Don_Modesto 07-16-2005 12:10 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)? "In general," might saying this give a false confidence to the average Aikidoka? Just a concluding thought, In most confrontations its not just about the moves you can make, but what you can take.

Advanced Search: Key Word(s): aikido, work

DevinHammer 07-16-2005 12:14 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
I think that however mistaken is their initial impression, it will quickly be put into perspective after training for a very short period. They will figure out that "learning" Aikido is not a finite process. They will learn that avoiding an attack has nothing to do with the size of the attacker, and doesn't necessarily involve the execution of physical technique. They will realize that "taking on" an attacker is always the absolute last resort. And most importantly, as a result of their training they will become acutely aware of what they can and, more importantly, CAN'T handle.

NagaBaba 07-16-2005 12:54 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
It depends of the level of aikido you are currently:
1. Aikido BEFORE contact
2. Aikido AFTER contact
Option no.2 is available to most of us and there weight (or multiplicity attackers) plays important role. Option no.1 is close to sword work, and here these factors are less important. However it is very sophisticated aikido.

Adam Alexander 07-16-2005 12:59 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
1)130-160 pound Aikidoka not backing away from a 275+ pound attacker(or multiple attackers), and seriously getting hurt; because falsely he/she felt their Aikido would shield them.... 2)Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)?...3)In general," might saying this give a false confidence to the average Aikidoka? ....4) Just a concluding thought, In most confrontations its not just about the moves you can make, but what you can take.

1)Isn't that weight match-up similar to Ueshiba vs. Tenru the sumo wrestler...in which Ueshiba wins?

2)I don't think it's any wiser to say that Aikido will be necessarily effective than to say that Aikido would not triumph in that situation. There's too many variables...how do you know the person possessess the intellectual and physical capacity to recognize what they're learning? How do you know they'll practice it enough for them? How do you know they will not freeze-up?

I think if a student asks,"If I'm attacked like this [insert type of attack here], what Aikido technique would be effective?" The response is,"This technique...However, that is purely from a technical perspective. There's many factors--individual to you, individual to the situation--that will have an effect. However, when energy is moving in that way, this response is an option."

3)I think the excellent post that precedes this one covers that well. I'd like to add, however, intellectual capacity and physical capacity to understand the techniques...so that they'll become "consciously incompetent" (I think that's what it's called)--they know they don't know.

4)Was this post a question or an effort to advance an idea?

In my own experience--real life confrontation--it was more about my ability to stay relatively calm and respond with reflex than "what I could take" (that is if you're referring to someone's ability to take a strike).


Just a last thought: I think what you're trying to imply (my interpretation) is true. However, I think it's not an Aikido issue, it's a MA issue--anyone who tries to tell someone else that this art or that art will do the trick isn't doing right by others. However, Aikido is the best:D

Roy 07-16-2005 02:45 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Jean,
A Little of both, an Idea, and to question the idea. I agree that there is allot of this issue, in all MA (maybe even more-so in others). Off-course I am just generalizing. Although, aside form Ueshiba or Kondo etc.., do you think that the general Aikido population would stand a chance against a sumo, or even a much bigger person or group?

mj 07-16-2005 05:31 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)?

Nah...but you could say
Quote:

by learning Aikido you will be, possibly, more able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)
.

seank 07-16-2005 06:56 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
When first starting Aikido, we were told that Aikido is very effective against larger or multiple attackers, but it was said with reference to giving you options.

Where I see a great divergence in Aikido from other martial arts is that you have the option of entering and to keep moving (ie to run away!). You don't have to tie-down/project your attacker or indeed to even try to stop them. Aikido teaches you entry and timing, from where your 130-160 pound Aikidoka could put a lot of distance between themselves and their 275+ pound attacker ;)

CNYMike 07-16-2005 08:57 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
.... Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)? .....

O Sensie was bery concerned about multiple attacker situations; that's why that category shows up in Aikido as one of the pillars of Aikido. It's part of the training, like it or not.

As to handling someone bigger than you, I don't know. But I weigh 230 pounds, and I've trained with a 11 year old kid who had no trouble throwing me.

CNYMike 07-16-2005 09:02 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
.... do you think that the general Aikido population would stand a chance against a sumo, or even a much bigger person or group?

If Aikido is like most other arts, then for good or ill, up to 90% of the "general Aikido population" are beginners who will quit within a year of starting. If someone has figures to prove me wrong, great, but burnout is a big problem in the arts. :( So from that perspective, statistically, the answer would be "no."

As for dealing with a sumo wrestler, why? Do you know one? :) Martial artists are rare; some are rarer than others. I wouldn't lose sleep over this one.

guest89893 07-16-2005 09:24 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
A Little of both, an Idea, and to question the idea. I agree that there is allot of this issue, in all MA (maybe even more-so in others). Off-course I am just generalizing. Although, aside form Ueshiba or Kondo etc.., do you think that the general Aikido population would stand a chance against a sumo, or even a much bigger person or group?

Why Yes, I think there are enough of us to take on and whip the tar out of a sumo - I mean a few hundred thousand against one. ;) :D

The what if's are rather tiring don't you think? I mean, do you run into many Sumo in Canada? A sumo has a sports career to worry about, not try and hassle a passing Aikidoka.
Here in Florida I might run into a Professional football player, in that case I don't want to win. I want my lawyer to win me money in a civil suit. You started this because perhaps your hearing someone at your dojo say these things - probably/possibly in connection in trying to get someone to join? So it's a truth in advertisiing issue- I'm just guessing here. However, to answer your question anyways : Does the general Aikido population stand a chance against a Sumo - yes if the Aikidoka has running room and a bar stool. But you may not perceive Aikido as I do. Does the average Aikido population stand a chance against a bigger person. Absolutely yes! Because the average bigger person is just more mass, not more skill, not more strength (mass does not truly equal strength - mass equals mass), not more speed, not more stamina, not more fighting spirit. Just weight, & size -and the size can go in many directions. Last question do you think the general aikido population would stand a chance against a group. Yes! A much better chance than before they took Aikido and a much better chance than the average person (who here in the states is that bigger by overweight, out of shape, and unwilling to park and walk 2 extra feet for a parking space, and has the martial skill of a turnip that even with a panic button on their car keys and a cell phone if they get attacked someone else would be calling because Joe Average froze. And the main group attack from these people are the dangers in getting hit by them driving their Cars/SUVs/Trucks in an interesection while talking on their cell phone to their overweight spouse to be sure to get two large containers of the "FatFree" ice cream!!
Sorry Roy, I guess I'm ranting. The analogy that to me applies to your question is: A pack of matches will give you a better chance of starting a campfire if your lost alone in the forest. It improves the chances of survival for the person with matches over the person with no matches. Does it mean that now that you have the matches you can hunt, kill, and skin, and cook a bear. Build a cabin, build a canoe, and suddenly have the skills to make your way out of the forest. Well probably not, but some might manage to do better with the matches than without and the same is true for Aikido.
Plus, just for fun have you tried Don Modesto's suggestion of key word search: Aikido, work . You might have had found your answer and saved us all from my ranting :)
cheers,
Gene

Jiawei 07-17-2005 05:39 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
In the long run, Aikido does train you to handle multiple attackers. But you don't learn this immediately when you step into the dojo-Its a process that can only be developed through constant practice and improving your level of skill in Aikido.

I wouldn;t say that you would be able to literally "take out and destroy your attackers" but as mentioned earlier, Aikido gives you the option of escaping rather unharmed when in a real situation.

Aikido places emphasis on self defence and not combat. (Of course you could pick a fight with baddies and see how aikido "takes em out".) So all in all, what do you want out of your MA ?
Just self defence or combat or both ? ( But I suppose that everybody does desire to do what steven segal does on tv....heh)

Don_Modesto 07-17-2005 11:06 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Gene Martinelli wrote:
The what if's are rather tiring don't you think? I mean, do you run into many Sumo in Canada? A sumo has a sports career to worry about, not try and hassle a passing Aikidoka.
Here in Florida I might run into a Professional football player, in that case I don't want to win. I want my lawyer to win me money in a civil suit....the average person...bigger by overweight, out of shape...martial skill of a turnip...dangers in getting hit by them driving their Cars/SUVs/Trucks in an interesection while talking on their cell phone to their overweight spouse to be sure to get two large containers of the "FatFree" ice cream!!
Sorry Roy, I guess I'm ranting.

ROTFLMAO--Archive this!

Quote:

....if your lost alone in the forest...now that you have the matches you can hunt, kill, and skin, and cook a bear. Build a cabin, build a canoe, and suddenly have the skills to make your way out of the forest. Well probably not, but some might manage to do better with the matches than without and the same is true for Aikido.
Yup. Thanks, Gene.

Jorge Garcia 07-17-2005 11:19 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Aikido is what it is. So is judo, karate and everything else. You as an individual make it work. It doesn't make you work. A good martial artists can make any art work good. A great martial artist can make any art work great. A crummy martial artist can't make any art work and it won't make him work better either. It's not the method that makes the person. It's the person that makes the method. That's why O Sensei was better than most of us.
Best,

Amir Krause 07-18-2005 05:19 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
One tiny addition to the excellent answers above.

Aikido is no magic, practicing it does not promise anyone anything, including the very good practitioners. By practicing Aikido (or any other M.A.) one is improving is odds to survive such an encounter (Bigger attacker, more strength). Another issue is that one is reducing the likelihood of such an encounter ever taking place.

Amir

Michael Cardwell 07-18-2005 07:31 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
"The bigger they are, the harder they fall." I can just see it, a 130-160 pound Aikidoka not backing away from a 275+ pound attacker(or multiple attackers), and seriously getting hurt; because falsely he/she felt their Aikido would shield them. I would like to pose a few questions that I have been sort of wondering/concerned with. Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)? "In general," might saying this give a false confidence to the average Aikidoka? Just a concluding thought, In most confrontations its not just about the moves you can make, but what you can take.

Sure it's OK to say this, but it should be pointed out that it works much better if the aikidoka is holding a live katana at the time. In which case it would be more appropriate to say "The bigger they are, the more pieces they make" :p

Adam Alexander 07-18-2005 11:32 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Roy Leclair wrote:
do you think that the general Aikido population would stand a chance against a sumo, or even a much bigger person or group?

Depends on what you mean by "chance."

If you mean chance of survival or chance of not taking a pounding, I think Aikidoka stand a better chance of escaping unharmed than the average person or the average MAist. I believe because we train to move from day one...as another poster said, move away or out of the way.

If you mean chance of survival as in "would the Aikidoka win a match/fight/life-death battle?" I'd say that that's a real difficult question. Although you can develop some ideas about what average is, I don't think you really do justice to anyone, or the art for that matter, by doing it--I mean, what techniques against what types of energy is the average Aikidoka able to pull off? Is the average Aikidoka cool under the threat of real life injury? What kind of shape is the average Aikidoka in?--I don't think you can really answer the question validly.

I can say this with confidence (even if it's false:)), I think the average Aikidoka stands a better chance in any situation (upright) because we train to move.

Also, because of my Aikido training (maybe more false confidence:)), I'm not worried about bigger people or groups.

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to weasel out of the question. It's just the only thing I can come up with.

Roy 07-18-2005 06:24 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Dear Jean,
I agree with your response, a trained person does stand a better chance against any stronger attacker. I don't think you weaseled your way with this question. In fact it is one of the more honest ones. It does not have all that defensive wishy-washy holistic blah, blah, blah, tone that many people, most times respond with. Oh, and prior to reading your response, I did not know Ueshiba beat a Sumo, I find that to be absolutely amassing.

Aristeia 07-18-2005 07:04 PM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
I think the question is a valid one. I come at it from a number of different, and of course possibly contradictory angles.
1. I agree that the "it won't make you invincible but it should improve your chances of survival" approach is a good one.
2. We've all seen Aikidoka strutting around like the the baddest mofos in the world becasue their stuff has never been tested and they're convinced what they can pull off on the mat with a compliant uke translates into street bad assery. So it's an important point and I do think it starts when the student walks through the door. If they are told from day one that it will beat larger multiple opponnents, then think that's what they experience in trainng, and if they're not the type of person to read/investigate widely outside their own dojo then you've got a recipie for the stereotypical arrogant aikidoka in 10 years time (or less)
3. Having said that, I'm often amused at the "what that art/teacher/dojo is teaching is gonna get someone killed" line that comes up so often online. Yes there are arts/dojos/teachers that teach stuff that don't work and give people false confidence - and aikido will have it's share of representitives I'm sure. But I've yet to hear a single credible story of how a student of such a school has been seriously injured as a result of that confidence. <shrug>

Red Beetle 07-19-2005 01:09 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
If you have to place a bet between the 130lbs average Aikido black belt in the U.S. vs the 275lbs. Irish Brawler, then go with the Irish Brawler to beat the hell out of the average Aikido black belt in the U.S.

The Irish Brawler has tested his tactics many times in actual combat. The sad truth is that the average Aikido black belt has never even been in a real fight.

Everyone knows what they are going to do if they have to fight, then they get punched in the face.

This is a good reason to keep the challenge match in present day dojos.

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

happysod 07-19-2005 02:39 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

The sad truth is that the average Aikido black belt has never even been in a real fight.
that's a sad truth?
Quote:

This is a good reason to keep the challenge match in present day dojos
perhaps it's just me being pedantic, but a challenge match isn't just competitive sparring, or are you advocating dojo storming here? (you've dishonored my senseis hakama, now you must pay...)

wxyzabc 07-19-2005 03:33 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Hya guys

The usual eh?..chuckle...does it work? etc etc

Well imho it all comes down to play of words as usual...someone "learning" or "studying" aikido?...I have to assume you mean a complete beginner?..well chances are their study isn't going to help a great deal.

I think it's safer to say that when you have "mastered" various or a substantial amount of techniques then sure you can take on bigger or more opponents if you're unlucky enough to find yourself in that position....doesn't mean you will win though eh.

Aristeia 07-19-2005 06:21 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Lee Price wrote:
Hya guys

The usual eh?..chuckle...does it work? etc etc

.

Actually I'm not so sure it is. This is a slightly different and more interesting question. To whit, are we honest and forthright with our students, kohai, colleagues about the fact that it may not?

seank 07-19-2005 07:23 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Quote:

Everyone knows what they are going to do if they have to fight, then they get punched in the face.

This is a good reason to keep the challenge match in present day dojos.
True enough- most people will get punched in the face. I squared off with an ex-soldier of nearly 80 pounds heavier than me, whose first instinct was to punch me in the face, followed by kneeing me in the groin, then trying to gouge my eyes whilst alternately punching me to the kidneys.

Fighting like this is not combat or like a sport in any way shape or form. When you have someone seriously trying to hurt you, you very quickly resort to the basics. I had the option of seriously fighting back and causing as much damage as I could, but in this instance my real concern was how to diffuse the situation without either of us getting seriously injured or accidentally killed.

Aikido technique was not used, but my intention to not harm the person was always there. I walked away with a few bruises, a lot of respect for down and dirty fighting, but at least satisfied that I was able to walk away without having injured the other person.

I firmly believe there is no exaggeration in saying that Aikido can help you defend yourself in many ways, but it's how you intend to use it that makes all the difference.

Roy 07-19-2005 11:29 AM

Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??
 
Dear Micheal Fooks,
Thank you for your response to Lee Price's less then impressive insight. This question is more then your typical "will it work,"or "this-vs-that." I think its OK to be real.


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