AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8363)

Jory Boling 06-18-2005 07:32 PM

Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
hello senpai! i'm having trouble:

in my dojo, we practice the ura version of shomenuchi ikkyo (well, one way we practice it) with the nage first thinking about doing the omote version. as the nage starts to go to the front, the uke stops him by placing his hand on the uke's shoulder. as a result the nage steps next to the uke's lead foot, tenkans, gets offline and down goes uke! hooray!

i have problems doing the tenkan gracefully enough to just fade offline and behind them.

other than continued practice, does anyone have any tips?

Jory
p.s. i hope you can understand my description. it gets confusing after the first few ukes and nages.

mj 06-18-2005 08:08 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Tenkan around what uke is doing, not what nage is thinking of, I think.

Don_Modesto 06-19-2005 03:03 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Something that helped my IKKYO URA was to square my hips with UKE on entry and let the strike proceed ahead adding my own force to it on the downstroke.

This usually has the effect of off-balancing UKE. At this point, we are standing parallel facing the same direction (180 degrees opposite of where I was facing before the attack).

Then I do TENKAN. This puts UKE's arm into SHIKAKU and s/he is launced. The inertia is increased if you TENKAN into SEIZA.

Jorx 06-19-2005 03:31 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
During ikkyo ura ALWAYS keep uke's elbowjoint directly in front of your centerline. Take down tempo if needed.

James Davis 06-21-2005 10:17 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Lower your hips when you move, so that gravity helps you move your uke. Don't think too much about moving uke, though. Move YOURSELF. :)

Jory Boling 06-21-2005 09:34 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Thanks folks. Thursday I'll try to internalize the tips mentioned here and see how it goes... I appreciate it!

rob_liberti 06-22-2005 08:13 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
If you have to do that "drill", then I'd say: You have to open you mid-section up so that the power of your legs/hip movement translates through your arms. Try not to use your arm power at all other than to keep the connection - by figuring out how to keep them pushing on you as opposed to you pushing them around. I would say twist your arm near their wrist in the counter-intuitive direction (opening palm up around your pinky - as you provide a bit of power expanding power starting from your legs) just before you make your positional transition to the outside. Typically, you make the positional transition before physical contact.

How do you stop ikkyo omote by pushing their shoulder? I'm not following that one. When you do ikkyo omote, are you pushing their elbow up, over, across, and then down towards their back foot? I can see that getting stopped or countered. But if your angle cuts straight through between their attacking arm and their head such that your force goes to where their "tail" would be (think kangaroo) and your body is lined up to deliver that cut then no cross lateral (I'm assuming they are pushing with the arm that was not initially attacking) shoulder pushing is going to stop that unless they happen to have something like a kangaroo's tail for stability.

Rob

Jory Boling 06-22-2005 08:33 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
I mean, first, we practice omote. Then, we practice ura. We start off almost doing omote, but this time, uke puts their hand on nage's ELBOW which prevents nage from going in front of uke. I guess this creates a situation where it would be better to go behind uke instead of across their front (they have to much power or you're too late and they are very strong coming down or...)

I'm taller than most people in the class, so i always feel like it's hard for me get below/behind that arm to get offline.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 06-22-2005 09:32 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
It's funny, short people often complain that they can't reach high enough to control uke.
Try kneeling and doing the technique. Height has less to do with it than you might think. Or so it seems to me.
One tip: move your vision just slightly /ahead/ of uke. This is kind of hard to explain. The idea is not to get caught up in any one moment for too long, but rather, keep it moving, as towards a goal you can't actually reach. That can make it smoother and more effective. (Again, a warning that this is hard to describe in words.)

aikigirl10 06-22-2005 09:39 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
make sure u tenkan on the balls of your feet . That is what i've always been taught and it seems to work

Nick Simpson 06-24-2005 07:51 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Feed into uke first as if for the irimi version and then begin your tenkan with a cutting motion with your front hand. Try to capitalise on the initial cutting motion to unbalance uke rather than pushing hard on their elbow as this makes people tense up and is easily resisted, lower your hips to transfer your weight through ukes arm into them and pin them to the ground at the end of the tenkan.

PaulieWalnuts 06-24-2005 08:00 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Make sure you aline your toes with ukes toes and blend around that point, if your enter past the toes uke should be to strong to move or the training is to weak. The founder toe to toe in budo. Although certain style just like to enter and turn and magicaly uke follows.
Also grab underneath the elbow so you can turn the arm over and make sure you cut with the hand holding the wrist.
At no point should ukes arm be close o your leg or its very easy to get swept or gripped in bad places.

Peter Goldsbury 06-24-2005 09:28 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Quote:

Jory Boling wrote:
hello senpai! i'm having trouble:

in my dojo, we practice the ura version of shomenuchi ikkyo (well, one way we practice it) with the nage first thinking about doing the omote version. as the nage starts to go to the front, the uke stops him by placing his hand on the uke's shoulder. as a result the nage steps next to the uke's lead foot, tenkans, gets offline and down goes uke! hooray!

i have problems doing the tenkan gracefully enough to just fade offline and behind them.

other than continued practice, does anyone have any tips?

Jory
p.s. i hope you can understand my description. it gets confusing after the first few ukes and nages.

Mr Boling,

Have you raised this matter with your own instructor? With all due respect to those who have replied so far, I think it is quite pointless to discuss the finer points of technique in a forum such as this. You need to be on the mat and actually practising.

Having read the replies, I can see that my own way of doing 1-kyou ura breaks most of the 'rules' expressed in this thread, yet I learned it from Yamaguchi Sensei. I would not want to explain the details, for there is too much likelihood of misunderstanding. However, I think I can safely state that I have never practised an ura technique (in kihon waza) as an omote technique that suddenly changed its focus to ura.

Hence my question. Is your relationship with your instructor such that you can ask him to come over during practice and show you why you cannot do the techique in the way he has demonstrated?

Of course, continued practice is a very good solution, but it must be enlightened practice, not the blind repetition of techniques which you think your Sensei taught, but are not quite sure.

Of course, I do not expect you to take my word. After all, you do not know me or the way I train. However, as a tip, I suggest that you do the training you have described as part of free training (randori or jiyu-waza). If you have not reached this level of proficiency, then you will need your instructor to guide you through the structure of the form.

Best regards,

Don_Modesto 06-24-2005 05:24 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
....I learned it from Yamaguchi Sensei. I would not want to explain the details, for there is too much likelihood of misunderstanding.

FWIW, Peter, your descriptions of KOTE GAESHI (online) and IKKYO (across the breakfast table) helped me a lot. I'd love to hear you describe IKKYO ala Yamaguchi. Taking Gleason's IKKYO was quite illuminating.

Thanks.

Peter Goldsbury 06-24-2005 07:12 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
FWIW, Peter, your descriptions of KOTE GAESHI (online) and IKKYO (across the breakfast table) helped me a lot. I'd love to hear you describe IKKYO ala Yamaguchi. Taking Gleason's IKKYO was quite illuminating.

Thanks.

Hello Don,

When I trained in the UK, the way I originally learned Shoumen uchi ikkyou ura was the way illustrated in, e.g., Saito's "Aikido: Its Heart and Appearance", pp. 64-65, or in Shioda's "Total Aikido", p.86-87 (there is no illustration in the earlier book "Dynamic Aikido"). Note especially the alignment of the feet and the trajectory of uke's elbow. The problem with this approach is that there is a temptation for a non-expert to block uke's attack sideways and thus to deflect the attack over the centre line in the opposite direction from the eventual tenkan movement (i.e., if the attack requires you to do a left tenkan movement, the deflection would be to your right).

With Yamaguchi Sensei the initial foot alignment was quite different and the much deeper initial irimi allowed tori to control uke's elbow without blocking uke's movement at all. Thus, if uke's initial attack, with the right hand, required a left irimi/tenkan movement, tori's left elbow would be touching the small of uke's back, as the tenkan spiral was executed.

Best regards,

Edit: The difference in the foot alignment is very difficult even to see, if you have been brought up to do the technique in 'textbook' form. It took me quite some time to see the differences and so I never teach both forms in one class (as I did at Aiki Expo 2002).

Don_Modesto 06-25-2005 03:14 PM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
.... the way I originally learned Shoumen uchi ikkyou ura

Thank you, Peter.

rob_liberti 06-27-2005 08:36 AM

Re: Tips for shomen uchi ikkyo ura? anyone?
 
Peter,

I agree with your point that this matter should be taken to the instructor. But I think it is quite useful for a student to approach a problem they are facing in aikido by getting as much insight into the problem as they can. I think it is a very good thing for the student to go to the instructor and not only explain the problem they are having, but also bring some new ideas to the table and show what they have been working on to try to work it out for themselves - rather than just having the typical "please spoon feed me" approach to technical problems.

If you disagree with any of the suggestions, that would be valuable to us, please share them. I loved what you wrote about people pushing the arm to the right and then trying to tenkan to the left. The funny thing is that while there is no doubt that what you are saying is true (to me) I am finding more and more that I need to set up opposites like that (not to the absurd degree where I'm breaking connection). To me I'm seeing ikkyo more and more as thrusting a sword - and then cutting, it's just that what I used to think of as thrusting a sword has been changing. I have to set a direction one way with my hands, and let my body move to keep that connection (which normally start out together, and then separates, and then starts moving together again). For that matter, I have to throw a lot of form away to deal with Gleason sensei when he takes ukemi for me - but I think you have to start from somewhere.

Rob


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:56 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.