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Dajo251 04-30-2001 10:46 AM

Gun!!!!!!!!
 
I recently visited a friend of mines kempo/tkd/etc school and learned that they practice gun take aways. Personally I think the idea of trying to take away a gun from someone who is pointing it at you is absurd. I was wondering what the rest of you think?
Dan

andrew 04-30-2001 10:57 AM

Re: Gun!!!!!!!!
 
If it's unloaded, and they're trying to pistol whip you or something, it's a great idea.
I suppose you might find yourself in a do or die situation, but what's important in that situation is dealing with the adrenaline drain involved, so if that didn't come first they're being silly.

andrew

wildaikido 04-30-2001 11:28 AM

They did a survey in the US that said if someone points a gun at you 70% of the time they'll shoot you, do you like to gamble if you train in it and your good go for it. This is when tenkan is important.

mj 04-30-2001 01:06 PM

I suppose if someone IS going to point a gun at you, it's better to have trained in a realistic disarming procedure of some sort.
If the person with the gun has a brain though, what chance would you have. They can use ma-ai too...

Matt Banks 04-30-2001 01:14 PM

Gun
 
Ive trained in many aikido dojo's which practice aikido disarming tecniques. In every cased their always taught, to weigh up the need to defend yourself. ie if he wants your wallet give it to him etc. If in some scenario you knew he would kill you then you would have to do something about it. It is something you as the student has to decide...how far would it need to go?
The one we regularly practice is you somehow talk your way into the attacker until he/she has the gun near your head. You keep on talking to give a distraction, like 'i have the keys to my ferrari in my pocket' then you flick the gun to one side moving your head the other way and use hiji-shime on the arm to control the gun. Then we take the gun, get the attacker in sankajo and walk him to the police station. OK we dont do the last bit really! The fact is while walking in the attacker might shoot you....bang no martial art tecnique can help you. Not even the ninja turtles could do anything.
Luckly the uk is very strict on firearms, the public aint allowed them, but thats another big debate.


Matt Banks

Matt Banks 04-30-2001 01:20 PM

gun
 
When we do the above tecnique, uke holds a loaded bi-bi gun with plastic bi-bi's. Tory wears correct eye protection. If you get stung by the bi-bi then you know the outcome. If uke at anytime feels like your trying to take the gun of him heel shoot. It is a safe way to practice, and its fun. On one session, a visiting sensei brought a replicle semi automatice bi-bi gun, it was fun adapting the tecnique.


Matt Banks

Chocolateuke 04-30-2001 08:57 PM

I know that we dont wanna make this the biggest issue of Gun COntrol on an Aiki post but here http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/ is a site that says that every 13 sec a criminal is stoped by using a gun in self defence intresting thing. in my opion if I am in a situation where someone is pointing a real loaded gun I would give them the car but not my Mom!

darin 04-30-2001 11:15 PM

Re: Gun
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Matt Banks
Ive trained in many aikido dojo's which practice aikido disarming tecniques. In every cased their always taught, to weigh up the need to defend yourself. ie if he wants your wallet give it to him etc. If in some scenario you knew he would kill you then you would have to do something about it. It is something you as the student has to decide...how far would it need to go?
The one we regularly practice is you somehow talk your way into the attacker until he/she has the gun near your head. You keep on talking to give a distraction, like 'i have the keys to my ferrari in my pocket' then you flick the gun to one side moving your head the other way and use hiji-shime on the arm to control the gun. Then we take the gun, get the attacker in sankajo and walk him to the police station. OK we dont do the last bit really! The fact is while walking in the attacker might shoot you....bang no martial art tecnique can help you. Not even the ninja turtles could do anything.
Luckly the uk is very strict on firearms, the public aint allowed them, but thats another big debate.


Matt Banks

Hijishime is a good technique. Very strong and can also be used against other weapons.

I don't know anything about guns but I was told buy a marksman that if you grab the barrel or the slide or put your finger/thumb between the hammer the gun will not fire. Is there any truth to this?


AikidoSteve 05-01-2001 12:12 AM

I've seen the results of someone stopping the forward movement of the hammer with the web between the thumb and the index finger. It will work! But be prepared to lose a chunk of skin and you better be moving because you won't get a second chance. I've been told that if you rush the individual with the firearm that chances are they will miss when shooting at you, unless (make that a BIG UNLESS) they practice shooting targets that move at them or they could just get lucky. I'm not so sure I'd want to play that game. I guess it would depend upon the situation. In my younger days I've had one gun and two knives pulled on me. And in each case I became a "Yes Sir!" kind of guy mighty darn fast. As a NRA Certified Instructor in Home Defense, I tell my students to keep the gap between the "Bad Guy" and yourself as big as possible, just to prevent the intruder, rapist or what ever from trying to take away your firearm. And if you pull your firearm you must absolutely be mentally prepared to "shoot to stop" the person coming at you. Plus I also advocate plenty of shooting practice.

I just hope that none of us ever find ourselves at either end of a firearm during a bad situation.

Yours in Aikihood

wildaikido 05-01-2001 03:12 AM

Matt that sounds like fun (well not if you get shot) I would make sure I was wearing my judo gi :)
I just wish bi-bi gun weren't illegal in Australia.

ian 05-01-2001 11:01 AM

Re: Re: Gun
 
Quote:

Originally posted by darin


I don't know anything about guns but I was told buy a marksman that if you grab the barrel or the slide or put your finger/thumb between the hammer the gun will not fire. Is there any truth to this?


I think you'd have to be very fast and accurate to achieve this - may as well do an Aikido technique. You'd also have to be very close, and you'd also have to be dealing with a weapon with an exposed 'hammer' (i.e. a revolver.)

If people are so worried about a gun confrontation, why do they not worry to the same extent about a knife confrontation. It is quite easy to disable someone (and then kill them) by use of a knife, at close quarters. It is also harder to take a knife off someone (at close quarters) than a rifle or hand gun, due to the blade.

However, if they are not right next to you and you don't want to give in the best thing to do is to run away (ACROSS their field of vision, so you are a harder target (moving eratically) and try to get as many objects between you and them as possible (parked cars etc) - the bullets from many weapons will pass straight through these objects (including walls), but it can stop them targetting you. Also, try to repsent as little area to them as possible (keep low or hit the floor).

Ian

ian 05-01-2001 11:04 AM

P.S. some aikido techniques are great for disarming, but can put the position of the gun close to your ear. This will obviously give you long term hearing damage if it is discharged!

Ian

REK 05-01-2001 03:54 PM

Uh....
 
I smell a rant coming on....

We have some post-ers who feel that aikido is meant to deal with someone who is doing "everything right", ie keeping their balance during attack, recovering quickly for counter attack, etc. For those folks, this belief should extend to "Smithandwessondori". I feel very strongly, however, that a well-trained marksman will put a bullet in your brainpan long before you ...enter in close enough for a hiji-owthathurts.

Others feel that there is only a, what, 10% chance of meeting someone who is well trained? In which case you can excuse the suicidal practice of trying to stick your thumb between the hammer and the receiver or lock the slide back or any of those other hollywood responses. Further, I think to add to this irresponsible pondering a debate as to the true commitment of a fire-armed attacker is simply nonsense. When the weapon is out, commitment is immaterial. You don't need commitment to kill someone accidentally.

As a trained crisis negotiator, my opinion reflects that of my FBI instructors...you either talk them down, kill them first, or just simply don't be there to begin with.

Thus endeth the rant

Rob

mj 05-01-2001 04:33 PM

I agree with REK. The gun is 'the great equaliser'. It negates all 'our' training. But hey, I could (do) live without a gun. I couldn't live without some aspect of training.... just got to get on with it, right? :cool:

guest1234 05-01-2001 10:18 PM

i don't know about how effective the techniques are, i was shown one once, and don't remember much. I don't do Aikido for self defense, so i don't have much need to work on that aspect anyway, but i can readily think of a situation where someone is holding a gun on you, and you know he will use it---a soon to be ex- who would rather see you dead than free of him. You can try to negotiate with someone like that, but with all the times you hear of a woman being shot by her husband, how often do you hear of her talking him out of it? for folks doing Aikido for situations like that, rather than say they don't work, i say good luck and work hard on those techniques.

ian 05-02-2001 06:53 AM

Yeh,
I hope my previous post didn't come over as a strong advocation of tackling someone with a gun (I think that is a personal matter). I just wanted to say that we talk about defending from knife attacks, but they can easily be lethal.

Also, how do we assess the options within that situation, and what do we have to loose? Although unarmed attacks can also be lethal, most people do not want to loose face and presume that their opponent will not kill them. Therefore they tackle them, to a lesser degree this may occur with a knife and then to an even lesser degree this occurs with a weapon.

Why do you defend yourself at all instead of just running away? Maybe it is a balance between ego, fear (of death) and whether you feel you can control the situation (physically or through negotiation). In addition it is whether you will loose something (such as friend or family) if you do run, or you feel a moral obligation (i.e. if everyone tried to tackle those threatening them with weapons, maybe people would think twice before issuing such a threat - or maybe not).

Ian

Anne 05-03-2001 01:15 PM

As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

Jim23 05-03-2001 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anne
As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

Regardless of where you live, you might have a little trouble outrunning a bullet. Dodging them ... well, that's another story. ;)

Regarding a knife attack, I was taught that the attacker to be extra careful with, was the person who attacks with the knife above his head (fist above the head). They're out for the kill, as opposed to just slashing you.

Jim23

AikidoSteve 05-03-2001 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anne
As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA

Jim23 05-03-2001 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AikidoSteve


And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA

Steve,

I don't think it's appropriate or fair for you to attack Anne like that. Lighten up man.

What happened was terrible, but don't make it personal.

Jim23

AikidoSteve 05-03-2001 02:44 PM

Sorry for those who were offended. But the facts still remain. Plus I don't consider it personal. And it was not meant to be personal. None of us were able to change that course of history. But we might have an influence on the future. And perhaps be able not to repeat the bad parts of history.

By the way on my family tree one paternal grandmother was a Becker and one maternal grandmother was a Hemple.

Jim23 05-03-2001 03:02 PM

I have no problem with the facts that you've stated. It's the "Sorry ... but" that gives me trouble. And it doesn't matter if you don't consider it personal.

Anne made a harmless comment. She doesn't need a US vs. Germany lecture, or you using Hitler and the Nazis to justify gun ownership in the US. Besides, the gun topic has been beaten to death elsewhere.

Jim23

AikidoSteve 05-03-2001 03:47 PM

Jim23,
I'm sorry you consider it personal. But I can only control my thoughts not yours. And you may not like my sorry but:( and you can have all the baggage that comes with it. The facts remain the same, and I'll stand by my statement!

Further, Anne, I apologize if you felt attacked.

Yours in Aikihood

Jim23 05-03-2001 04:01 PM

Steve,

Look, I have nothing against you -- I don't even know you. I'm not question your facts, because they are true. I'm just saying that this is an aikido forum and Anne didn't deserve your remarks (maybe she doesn't really care).

Regarding the baggage comment, I honestly don't know what that was supposed to mean. Are you saying that I don't understand the baggage that goes with your statement? You need to explain.

Jim23

PS: I can control your thoughts ;)

PeterR 05-03-2001 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AikidoSteve
And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

Based on the assumption that those countries with gun laws are less free. :rolleyes:
What's the percentage of the US population that's incarcerated.
Quote:

In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you.
All depends on which lottery you are talking about.

Stirring, stirring, stirring.


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