Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

So last nights training I'm working with a new student. Technique is Shomenuchi Shihonage and I'm nage. I do the technique slowly as this student has zilch ukemi ability and I don't want to hurt him. I enter shihonage and begin to cut down uke begins to twist out of shihonage. We've all experienced this with beginners. With experienced Aikidoka I can just continue with a smooth cut down and a pin if I choose. But this is beginner stop and go aikido, so I tighten up the grip with a little elbow atemi to the back to prevent the twist. I gently suggest that twisting away from shihonage is a good way to get hurt, much safer to turn a little towards nage, easier on shoulder, better ukemi with more ukemi options.

I complete the technique and we begin on the other side. Same procedure, he twists, I restate and gently take him to the mat. By the third try he has decided its not his ukemi that needs work, but rather that my technique is all wrong and procedes to lecture me on how I should enter and block the attack, then move into shihonage. He assures me this will work much better. He is wearing a TKD gi, so I see were he gets his idea that this is some kind of block. I explain that in aikido the focus is on moving and blending, not standing still and blocking. He disagrees. At this point I'm looking for the instuctor and of course she is on the other side of the mat.

In the end I just shrugged it off and continued the workout with the beginner constantly trying to verbally correct my obvious misunderstanding of this technique. I basically ignored him but it took a lot of mental effort not to just crank down on the throw. Granted I've studied aikido off and on since 1988, and I still consider myself very much a beginner. And yes, I do believe you can learn from beginners but here is the real kicker. This guy had been practicing Aikido for a total of TWO WEEKS!!!

Okay, just had to get that off my chest. Not looking for any feedback but I need a good two hour session of Zazen and maybe a beer or two....

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Perhaps if you led him off balance more before you tried to go under the arm, he wouldn't be able to twist?

When I find my newbie partners can twist out it's not only because I allow them the room, but because I didn't take their balance before I entered, in deference to their newbie status. Easy correction.

Tarik

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

ahh...the wonderful dyanmic of aikido! Yes, most of us have been there. It is hard to figure out what to do. Usually I just smile and move on. The problem is, that you are limited by the parameters of the technique that sensei has you working on. Most new guys don't understand yet that if they resist that technique, it opens up for another.

I have on occassion pointed this out, or demonstrated it. Other times I just simply irimi and stop and do not continue on. They just stand there looking and after a few awkard minutes, they usually figure out that "yeah I see now...there is no need for the fight to continue if I do not move effectively and protect myself".

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I've often experienced this from aikido newbies with previous martial arts experience. The problem is that they do have enough sophistication to understand whether your technique might be working, but not enough knowledge in aikido to understand how or why it doesn't. Most recently I had one such newbie try to correct me and explain the technique to me. I've been practicing aikido consistently for 6 years, he had about 6 classes. I just pulled rank on him after his about 10th attempt at doing this. It turns out he has a judo background, he could take good ukemi and catch on to the techniques quickly, so he was jumping to the conclusion that he understood aikido as well as me. He definently understands JUDO better than me but not AIKIDO. But now, he's turning out to be a great training partner, and I just helped him pass his 5th kyu test.

Usually when newbies are just plain awkward and don't know where to go a good strong lead in your technique is better than going way too soft. If you go too soft they don't feel the lead, you most often do sacrifice the essence of the technique, and then they think you're technique isn't working right. You can still be soft and not sacrifice the essence of the technique. Take the balance and keep them off-balance the whole way. It's harder to do technique slowly and effecitively, but you really do discover you own technical flaws that way. If your just sacrificing the essence of the technique then you are just going too easy rather than going softly with them.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

What are your goals when you train with such a new person?

To make the technique work when they try to resist?

To work together to understand the technique better?

To learn together or just get your own learning out of the training and leave them to get theirs?

You mention a strong lead? What is a strong lead? Power? What kind of power?

Your post seems to reject soft as not strong, yet the strongest leads I have ever experienced have been soft.. so soft, that yes, I could not feel them until I relaxed enough to feel what was happening to my body. My problem, that fortunately my partners have been generous enough to explain and instruct and share.

But I had to be open to learning first.

I'd ask my partner, what is your goal in this training? To stop me? To make it more difficult to learn, or easier? If they persisted in trying to educate me in a path I KNEW to be wrong (and I could only know with the authority of having explored it for many years), then I might choose simply to throw them, yes softly, yes effectively, and wait for them to be ready to listen and learn.

If they're open to learning at that moment, they probably wouldn't be correcting me when they should be paying attention to what does and does not work in the technique.

So yes, if I were training with them, and they were insistant on not following the practice, I'd probably just be throwing (softly as I could manage) and concentrating on what *I* could get out of it.

Tarik

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

There is a video of O`Sensei doing shihonage on an American MP who almost twists out of it. So I wouldn`t worry about it if I were you. Also, I have seen many many TKD people in beginning Aikido classes, but I have never seen them stay.

Charles

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

When I work with a newbie/beginner in aikido my goal is to see to it that they learn the technique. That they learn to take good ukemi and not let themselves get hurt. That they learn how the technique work and why it works the way it does. My sensei encourages the most senior to help out the juniors. He's "scolded" me for not saying enough to my junior partners.

What is a good strong lead? Hmmm...how do I explain this. In doing proper technique I show the uke where to go. A good strong lead comes from proper technique. Part of doing proper technique is moving from my center and not muscling my techniques. Moving from my center is the "power" behind my technique. But I don't think of it as power, but rather as being centered. By "strong" I mean confident and self-assured so that the beginner/ newbie feels secure and comfortable enough that they end up following me to where I want to take them. If they don't go where I want them to, then I'm not doing the technique correctly.

Actually, that's my point. A person can be soft and strong at the same time. I'm talking about people (I'm one of those people, btw) being TOO SOFT to the point that they SACRIFICE THE ESSENCE OF THEIR TECHNIQUE (i.e. you start doing the technique improperly and ineffectively) However, my discovery with working with newbies if they can't feel where you are going they are not going there. If a person acts afraid to throw them, they will be afraid to fall. If they have previous martial arts experience they automatically conclude your technique is not "effective." I'm not talking about muscling, cranking and being abusive to a partner. Hardly, in the least. Actually, quite the opposite.

What I am advocating is to not patronize the beginner (or the person you think not capable of taking the ukemi) by going "too easy" or "too soft" as per my definiton above. You're essentially doing them no favor by not throwing them effectively. First, if they have any knowledge of martial arts then they will resist, spin out, counter, etc. Or second, a beginner will be too afraid to move or put themselves in some weird awkward position.

I explain, instruct AND share all the time. You're contrary impression most likely came from my example. I guess it sounded like I was advocating to thrash your parnter. But, I'm not. You see each time I explained or instructed this particular newbie (but not a martial art newbie) he consistently CORRECTED what I told him. He would stop me and point to another couple and tell me that was how we were supposed to do it. THAT is incredibly disrespectful. He did THAT 10 times while we were partnered together. Unfortunately, no sharing could happened in this particular situation as each time I told him something he IGNORED IT and then TOLD ME TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. I would just try to train then he'd interrupt my training. I've never experience such behavior before.

I don't advocate thrashing, but I do advocate speaking up to your partner, whatever the rank, and let them know they have crossed the line with you. This particular partner did. I did not throw him hard or roughly. I asked him what his aikido experience was as he was acting like he was ranked as if he really was not an aikido newbie. He said did have any aikido experience. I told him I've been doing this 6 years and asked him to please be quite so I could train. Then we went back to training, but silently this time. No thrasing, no retributional excessive hard throwing. Nothing like that. That path leads to nastiness and egotistic escalation. You really misinterpreted what I was saying, but thanks for asking for clarification.

Usually, this is what I do. I was trying to get out of it what I could, but this time this partner was rather persistent. Now, after he's been here after a few months, he HAS become a partner to share with and he does listen to me. I know he will eventually turn into a really great training partner.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

The best explanation it isn't verbal explanation at all. You must do technique work efficiently without any doubt. Physically. Not let him spin away. Not to hurt him, but technique must be tight, in good control of balance and extention. In one can't do it, you must ask instructor for help.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Well this has turned into an interesting thread. In my initial post I apparently gave the impresssion that I was having trouble with this newbie spinning out of shihonage.

Good advice, but I wasn't having any problem controlling the technique or leading uke. In fact the technique is irrelevant to the issue. My real issue is newbies stopping to lecture me on my technique with incorrect advice. Ann Marie best described this situation:

This is precisely the frustration I was experiencing. Some of the sugggestions I've seen include:

Yep. Only problem for me is that my full intent shihonage works great on yudansha that can protect themselves with good ukemi. However, doing the same on a two week newbie that doesn't understand ukemi and is extremely stiff can easily lead to injury, at least for me. My compromise is the typical stop and go technique, so that the newbie understand the basic motion of the technique and how to adjust their body correctly when they are taken off balance. My focus is just to get the basics across to the newbie. Dynamic Aikido can come later.

Asking the instructor for help with difficult newbies is the ideal answer. However with 30 plus bodies practicing, sensei is often busy helping others on the other side of the dojo. As I mentioned in my first post, I did not have an opportunity to politely get my instructors attention.

Yep, that was what I ended up doing. But this particular newbie never got the message and kept lecturing me at every opportunity.
Apparently this newbie did the same thing to my young son on a Katatetori Kotegaishi. My son explained that he was easing up on the kotagaishi as it can be hard on the wrist until you learn how to move. Newbie told him to just go ahead and do it, he could take it. Well, he went down like a sack of potatoes and came up rubbing his wrist. No more lecturing. My son actually experiences this type of newbie attitude all the time. He is a young teen so newbies make the mistake of assuming they know more because they are adults. He just shows them they are wrong and doesn't worry about them getting hurt. His attitude is, if you insist on taking punishment he is willing to oblige, here is the mat. I now understand where he is coming from, and I can see how it stops the now-it-all newbie chit chat, but thats not my style.

Anne Marie, I like this idea the best. "I've trained for beacoup years and your just starting, now shutup and focus on learning instead of teaching." Politely of course.

Now that I've had my copule of beers, I'd love to hear similar experiences from others and how you handled it.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Depending on the friendliness of the newbie/shihan, I give some version of either, "It's considered impolite to teach unless you're the instructor of the class," or "shut up and train."

The newbie might still think that I don't have a clue, but at least I don't have to listen to it. Then I can 'ask the instructor for help' when the instructor's available.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I don't seem to get this all that often, maybe because I also lead classes at the dojo sometimes so beginners assume that I know what I'm doing. :rolleyes: :D

I can think of one quite recently, the conversation went like this:
newbie: "Your supposed to go that way!"
me: "No, I'm not. "
newbie: "Oh. "

kvaak
Pauliina

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I actually find myself at the other end of this, I'm the new guy.

In my class I'm in fact the oldest (it's a children's class and I joined just before my 16th birthday so they kept me in this class understandably until some more get to adult class age), but I'm actually the lowest ranked. I find myself training with some of the higher grades, but I do notice slight things that they are doing wrong. I don't ever think that I've been observing their technique and oh this this and this are all wrong, I'm just a good listener and as I'm new I try to listen as intently as possible to sensei and get all the information in.

However, I have more sense and decency than to "correct" my partner, instead try to utilise what I notice they aren't doing when I perform the technique on them. Usually it comes out that next time they do it they've felt the extra twist or grip that I've done as sensei instructed, and then use this. I think any beginner shouldn't lecture a person trying to teach them, but there are times when the beginner has picked up or remembered something that they have not. (I am by no means saying I do them perfectly, 9 times out of 10 it's me doing something wrong)

In a fairly small class these things are usually cleared up when sensei walks past as they are doing a technique and says "That's not how you do it. THIS *yelp of pain* is how you do it. *grins*" (Does go into more detail but not after having a bit of a laugh :) ) Best way is sensei.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I learned an effective way to stop the "twist" this weekend from a fellow classmate . . . he is much taller than I and he actually starts to kneel when he enters Shihonage . . . he still on very much on balance . . . there is NO way that uke can twist out, plus it is very gentle on the beginner uke because their center of balance has been thrown SO far out of wack that they are practically on the mat by the time the move is about 3/4 of the way over . . .

i am a beginner as well . . . as is the person who showed me how to kneel during Shihonage . . . but at the same time, we have many advanced students in our class . . . it is just a matter of respect that you do not criticize those with more experience/higher rank . . . sensei will take care of that :)

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

The entire point of my post is that you have to talk to your partner. Not instruct them, necessarily, but talk to them about when they are trying to accomplish.

Our practice is all about what if... we set up an attack and a technique and practice it. It's EASY to get out of a technique when you know what is coming. You don't give as sincere an attack, you kill your center, you sandbag, whatever. It's so easy to do, that for beginners, they often don't even realize that they are doing it.

For the partner who has other experience and is bringing it into the dojo when new techniques are being taught, it seems to me that they are not open to learning. They have watched, decided that they understood, and have already tried to integrate new knowledge into their body.

So talking to them is more likely to illustrate this point and allow them to open up to trying something different. If it doesn't, then either don't train with them... or as I said before, just focus on your training (and on protecting your partner) and ignore them.

I've trained with (and instructed) PLENTY of such individuals over the years and the primary conclusion I have always walked away with is that it is not simply my responsibility to teach (it IS, of course) but it equally is THEIR responsibility to learn (and study). If they are not ready to learn, I am not going to waste too much time trying to teach them.

Regards,

Tarik

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I'm currently going through this with a six-year-old. We've been working on katate kosa tori kokyunage, and he's found that he can stay on his feet and keep from being thrown. Between the difficulty of getting under his center (I'd about have to drag my knuckles on the floor) and my desire not to overstress his ukemi, I just can't do the throw reliably without using force in a way we don't encourage.

I've just been saying "Okay, that was nice. Now can you let me practice the throw, and you practice the ukemi?" But I'm only an assistant teacher. It would be harder to take this attitude if I were the main teacher.

Mary Kaye

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Sometimes even kohai have grandeur hiding beneath their delusions. Letting go of one's own delusions is much harder than attributing them to others (appropriately or wrongly).
Personally, I try something along the lines of the following:
1st, when kohai makes a suggestion, I consider that the comment is something that has possibly been over looked by myself in previous training. I then examine it physically if it seems prudent to do so.
2nd, if the same suggestion still seems contrary to my understanding, I consider that I didn't even understand properly what was trying to be related and that the kernel of wisdom was effected by my preconceptions or that the lesson to be gleaned is related to the suggestion tangentially. I try to train with it in the back of my mind for future use.
3rd, if I can't reconcile my understanding with that of kohai's and the issue is pressed, I would explain as best I can the problems I have with the suggestion as it pertains to the current training. I try to infer (as subtext) that I listened carefully, but it would be wise to respect and act on the knowledge of sempai (or sensei of course) in the absence of direct counter example.
4th, if kohai still presses at this point, I just smile and practice on doing my own technique better, and remain totally mute (at least one of us has shut up at this point :D ). Either I am not currently ready to learn from kohai's suggestion, or it has little real merit. Which ever way is the reality, further debate isn't likely to help in the short run. Regardless, it is a great opportunity to practice "dealing with adversity" calmly under aggravating conditions.
Of course there is the flip side of this, so I watch when I'm the kohai how I push my sempai through each of these stages with my suggestions. My process for listening to sempai or sensei is similar (and rightfully practiced more often). The only differences are how far I trust to extend myself in the examination of principle and the way that I would default if I can't currently reconcile concepts.
Since I will always be burdened with my own delusions, the best process I know is to keep tearing them down and watching how I build them back up again.
Both sides of this topic are important and common. I've learned many good martial things from TKD and judo practitioners even when they had rather narrow views (not all do of course, neither are aikidojin/aikidoka immune). It is nice that such a good conversation could come out of the need for one to rant (I know the feeling).
One of my favorite jokes for keeping kohai and sempai honest with themselves:
Kohai: "So, how long have you been training?"
Sempai: "Today is my first day. *long pause, with second part sometimes much later* My first, first day in aikido was back in (for me '91)."

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Whilst practicing a Sankyo variation (slow time, because I have a REAL problem getting this), with a beginner, I was, as usual struggling slightly with the technique, also the stop/start and trying not to hurt uke didn't help the flow ot the technique, but i had control and thinkgs were going well. She turned round and said "I bet i could have hit you by now." Does anyone else get this, when a beginner doesn't realise that you would actually have piled their face into the mat if it was being done realistically, and that training slowly to perfect technique ISN'T the same as incompetance. Just wish that her ukemi was good enough so I could show a full speed sankyo, then ask her to pick out weak spots.

:D

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Sometimes you just have to show them. I usually try and bring them just to the point where they are about to become a puddle of protoplasm on the mat...and then stop and hold them up before they actually hit the mat (or the wall...or whatever)

Doesn't always work though...not always good enough to stop them from splatting. Maybe in a few years <sigh> :D

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Heehee, love this thread ;)

My husband once practiced kaiten nage with somebody of lower rank than him. Just before the throw the kohai said to him "But at this point I could bite your ankle!"

:freaky: :eek: :D

Hubby smiled and replied: "You probably could. But didn´t you see my knee right in front of your nose? What would you reckon would be more painful - a bite in the ankle or a knee in your face?" :p

I used to get terribly upset with people like that (and still do sometimes). Just last weekend I practiced with a kohai. We were doing a version of nikkyo shown by the teacher. Or at least I was, as kohai was not doing what was being shown. Anyway, I kept my mouth shut about it as I think that I should only correct somebody if asked for help.

All of a sudden this guy started correcting me on a very minor detail. Normally I would have gotten all upset and would have started a discussion with him. But then I remembered somebody here at aikiweb saying once "less chat, more mat" and instead I let the next technique sit properly. Kohai collapsed to my feet and shut up.

I have only been able to do this recently, because before I would have been scared to hurt uke, but now that my technique (at least that one ;) ) is better, I can actually apply it strongly without putting uke in danger.
This seems a very easy way of dealing with people like that and it certainly feels good afterwards, but I can´t help feeling that it is also a somewhat macho way of dealing with that problem. Unfortunately I am not enlightened enough to find a better way yet. ;)

With beginners it can be a whole different story though. Often their attack is "wrong" or they turn out of a technique (sometimes to prove that they know better, sometimes simply because they don´t know better or are even trying to be helpful). I have just started to teach my first beginner´s course and find this a difficult question, too. So far, I have had good succes trying to show people that by turning out or attacking wrong (e.g. shomen uchi with straight arm, etc) they actually put themselves in a worse position or leave themselves open for atemi, etc. This has helped so far, but I haven´t had any particularly hard cases of newbie-delusions-of-grandeur :)

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I don't think the response should be resentful of the beginner. You should expect them to be as inept verbally and tactfully as they are technically. In all respects you as sempai must make up for the shortfall. What you are taking as delusion is also keenness, curiosity, questioning and active thinking about the technique which is fantastic and deserves a good response. Ignore any flim-flam you could take as criticism/ego take everything as a question and give the best answers and demonstration you can - you are a model. If you feel certain enough to be frustrated by it then you should be certain enough to rise above it.

For me, a good response is 'At this level this is an exercise in body movement without reversals or resistance. Try focusing on staying relaxed, feeling how your posture is broken and taking a safe ukemi' or some such. My sensei often demonstrates the twist in the demo to clearly show its not what is wanted. If necessary, a high elbow extending uke really neutralises any twisting with discomfort but not danger. Simply saying 'Don't twist' if they begin to also works.

Insofar as ensuring a safe ukemi, we start off by not gripping uke so that the cut is under their control. They can let go at any point and perform their stiff crumple when they need. It also makes trying to reverse the technique transparently absurd since they could simply let go.

This has been a message from a deluded-newbie in defense of his brethren.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

I was planning to write a longer reply to this thread but Duncan really said everything I wanted to say. Nice one.

kvaak
Pauliina

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Points worth repeating.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Or you could just take them aside, quietly explain to them about ettiquette and 'dojo training' and how resisting a technique is likely to end in pain/injury for them. And then beat them down.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

Highly flexible people are always a challenge. Stay tight with him and if that doesn't work try crossing your thumbs across his wrist-when they try to twist out it is very painful.

Re: Beginners with delusions of grandeur...
 

A few months ago in our dojo a man who had a black belt (though I'm not sure what level of it, and I'd prefer not to say which style as I don't wish to form any stereotypes) came along and most of us were quite interested; what would he make of Aikido? Unfortunatly, though he could pick up techniques easily enough he seemed to be there not so much to learn Aikido but to stress what he saw as weaknesses; our dojo practices Tomiki Aikido, so we always have randori at the last half hour or so. Instead of letting techniques flow (practicing just kakari-geiko randori) he would do everything possible to resist them, almost getting injured in the process even though he was told on several occasions, and later in tanto randori he would use alot of his own styles techniques, frequently 'batting' the tanto out of uke's hand. I know of course that not all beginners with other MA experiance are like this, but they can be..hmm.. a challenge at times.
I really do enjoy when people with other MA backgrounds come to practice Aikido, but also speaking as a beginner who also had other MA backgrounds it can be difficult to break free of what you've already learnt and question where certain things would actually work (though I never pointed this out or made any comment; I was there to learn Aikido, not teach another style).

RG