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-   -   Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8162)

siwilson 05-18-2005 04:30 PM

Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Hi All,

I have practiced Aikido for a number of years and other martial arts for longer, and my experience with the Jo has taken in a number forms both paired and solo, but I do not know the 22 Jo Kata (NiJuNi Jo No Kata).

If anyone has a link to video clips of this, descriptions, and/or images, I would be very grateful.

Many thanks,

Si

Joe Bowen 05-19-2005 01:58 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Si, sorry but I do not know if any video of the 22 no jo. I will contribute this little antecdote though, I recently attended a weapons seminar where the instructor explained the primary difference between the 22 no jo and the 31 no jo.
To summarize what he said, the 22 no jo was developed by Koichi Tohei Sensei and the 31 no jo was develop by Saito Sensei. They differed rather greatly in the method of counting movements. Saito Sensei in the 31 no jo counts each single movement while Tohei Sensei counts several movements as a single movement. Therefore if you were to perform the 22 no jo counting in a manner consistent with Saito Sensei's method of counting, you would actually wind up with 36 movements rather than the proscribed 22. Not very helpful for your dilemna but interesting nonetheless.

Aikilove 05-19-2005 03:48 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
1 & 2 : 22 kata starts like 1-4 in 31 kata but with 2x shoku tsuki instead of keishi tsuki (each tsuki + jodan barai counts as one).
3 & 4 : Jodan geishi + renzouku uchi komi (like 31 kata)
5 : now ushiro tsuki (instead of turn + menuchi).
6 : turn 180 degrees into right tsuki kamae + tsuki
7 & 8 : jodan geishi (or hayan geishi sometimes) + renzouku uchi komi (like 3-4)
9 : jodan tsuki direct from last position (reversed grip)
10 : turn 180 degrees into left tsuki kamae
11 : tsuki from left tsuki kamae. hasso geishi direct to right tsuki kamae
12 : tsuki jodan...
13 : ...geishi + let jo slide back to gedan geishi position on you left side...
14 : from this position, in stead of gedan geishi like in 31 kata, do reverse jodan (freezing) tsuki to the throat (like 22 in 31 kata but from standing)
15 : another jodan tsuki again from same position then down to right tsuki kamae
16 : gedan tsuki (knee)
17 : hayan gedan geishi then direct back down and go down on your knee (16-17 is like 19-21 in 31 kata)..
18 : stand up and gedan geishi against knee
19 : reverse gedan stuki against knee from this position (like 13 but against knee) then back down to right tsuki kamae.
20 : Tsuki
21 : then step back with left foot and do jodan barai (like the first block in 2:nd kumijo) then back to left tsuki kamae
22 : and then left tsuki and penetrate your enemies floating ribs and rupture his spleen, kidnies and liver....

The counting may vary and sometimes a tsuki jodan geishi is a tsuki hayan geishi but there you have it.

Aikilove 05-19-2005 04:11 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
I found two clips of 22 no kata at the Swedish aikido club called "Järfälla Aikido Klubb" here http://www.aitekai.se/jak/
click on "Film" - then on "Jo Kata 22 & Motkata" (which is 22 kata according to Kobayashi Sensei) or "Jo Kata 22" which is according to Tohei Sensei.

I think that the way I recited it in my previous post is more according to Kobayashi sensei.

siwilson 05-20-2005 02:18 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Thanks Jakob

It's interesting to watch, as it is very much waving sticks around and the paired demonstration is aweful with tapping sticks together, but at least you can see the movements and also follow the count. Worlds away from Saito Sensei though!!!

I would really like to see a clip of Saito Sensei performing this if anyone knows the where-abouts of a clip.....?

Thanks,

Aikilove 05-20-2005 04:36 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
He didn't as far as I know. The two kata I believe is their respective interpretation of the variations of the kata O-sensei did many time (hence the very much similarities of the two).
I'm faithful to Saito ha aikido ;) but I would say that 22 kata (as Tohei did it) is probably just as close as the 31 kata (as Saito did it) to how O-sensei did his generic misogi/kata.
Actually watching Tohei do 22 kata (with speed!) looks way more like what O-sensei did at the footage I've seen at least, then todays broken down 31 kata. I have actually only seen Daniel Toutain do 31 kata close to how Tohei do 22 kata (close to how O-sensei did kata).

But I might be wrong.

siwilson 05-20-2005 10:10 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Thanks again Jakob, a huge help.

Si

Jill N 05-20-2005 10:23 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Jakob wrote:
>>I found two clips of 22 no kata at the Swedish aikido club called "Järfälla Aikido Klubb" here http://www.aitekai.se/jak/
click on "Film" - then on "Jo Kata 22 & Motkata" (which is 22 kata according to Kobayashi Sensei) or "Jo Kata 22" which is according to Tohei Sensei.<<

Hi all: "Jo Kata 22" is pretty close to what I have learned, except that we get off line more with each move, and we have been told to use as much as the mat area as possible, cover more ground. That's a pretty good clip. Thanks.
e ya later
Jill.

kironin 05-20-2005 02:11 PM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
The 31- Jo Kata and 22-jo kata are basically the same kata with some variations in hand grips and movements. Both are supposed to come from O-Sensei. The difference in number being mostly due to the 31 count labeling every move with a count. The 22-count is a rhythm count rather than step count where every complete movement should blend seamlessly into the next (like shodo). The video link given unfortunately gives you no sense of that. Without understanding the proper rhythm, you might as well be doing a step count like the 31 variation.

You can find a step by step pictoral layout of the 22-count form in Westbrook and Ratti's 1969 book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" but I don't remember if they give any instruction in the correct rhythm.

We also do a second 22 count form that was formulated by Tohei Sensei.

There is also paired practice variations of these. Partner practice in tandem like synchronized swimming - matching you rhythm with your partner teaching good awareness and extension, a paired of practice of matching, a partner practice where you are dealing with either one or two swordsmen with bokken. The latter practice is often one where the teacher takes the roll of swordsmen to help sharpen up the student's kata and give them a good visualization of what they are doing. Every move does have a specific target.

Kashiwaya Sensei doing this kata at his full speed is a powerful blur.

teaching tapes demonstrating them do exist.

and by the way I have been taught the 31 jo kata form by Bill Witt Sensei and Saito Sensei, so I have felt first hand the differences and similarities between the two forms. Neither one done correctly is just waving a stick around.

siwilson 05-20-2005 05:24 PM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Craig Hocker wrote:
Neither one done correctly is just waving a stick around.

True, I was refering to the demonstrators, not the Kata.

siwilson 05-22-2005 12:36 PM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
22 & 31 are different movements, no matter how you count. Anyone got 22 Jo Kata instructions and/or videos?

kironin 05-22-2005 04:16 PM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Si Wilson wrote:
22 & 31 are different movements, no matter how you count. Anyone got 22 Jo Kata instructions and/or videos?

well that's your opinion, but as I recall you said you do not know the 22 count. I did say the movements vary. The structure is quite similar and clearly similar to someone who has done both of them.

for instruction:

go to the products section on this website and select the Video DVD, this has Jo Gi Dai Ichi on it which is the 22 Jo Kata.
Maui Ki Society

or go here, the Taigi Vol. 3 has the 22 Jo Kata you want,
Kashiwaya Instruction video
This is VHS videotape, but hopefully soon it will all be on a DVD.

You can find a 9th dan demonstrating it at Ki Society HQ here at a German website.
online taigi videos
select Taigi 27 - Jo 1

siwilson 05-22-2005 05:15 PM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Craig,

I have been practicing martial arts for over 20 years and Aikido for about half of that time, so when I watch something (22) I feel pretty sure that I can see it as different to what I have done (31). Thank you though for the clips. I will explore them now.

Aikilove 05-23-2005 07:16 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Craig Hocker wrote:
The 22-count is a rhythm count rather than step count where every complete movement should blend seamlessly into the next (like shodo). The video link given unfortunately gives you no sense of that.

There where two clips of the 22 kata. Do you think that the one "22 kata" (Tohei style) doesn't give any sence of that either? Then I have to disagree. I find that clip performed (by Peter Spangford 5 dan shidoin aikikai, 3 dan Ki no kenkyukai) first slow and then fast looks very much like how I have seen Tohei perform it on video.

What do you think?

uturungu 06-28-2009 01:13 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Dear Everybody
many peolpe think that 31 jo no kata and 22 are the same. I would like to place the problem in another dimesion. We know that at the end of his lfe the founder teaches in Iwama as well as in Tokyo. We don't need to say that the pupils were very different in the capital than in Iwama. Saito sensei (in Iwama) was a meticulous, highly tradicionalist pupil. We can think that the pupils -who, in the end tought us both katas- saw different versions of the same kata. They saw what they knew, they counted according to their experience. For the meticulous pupil, every movement was counted, for the mystic one, the flowing was more important than the number of movements.
In some schools, kata 22 is tought as "kata 1".
I personally practice and teach a funny exercise: we have at least two common "moments" in both katas: mov. 12 and mov 17 (in kata 22) and 21 (in kata 31). Try to mix both katas!.
Try to start by performing kata 31 until mov. 12, then go on from there with 22 until mov 17 (of kata 22), then return to 31. Try also differente combinations of this practice: begin with 22 and turn to 31 and, finally, try to find another concordances between the two katas.
This is all to say that, in my humble opinion (I'm 4th dan BTW), the best we can do is to take the best from each "view" of the original and probably lost kata: from the 22 mov, the flowing of movements, from the 31 the accuracy of positions.

ChrisHein 06-28-2009 10:16 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
If you have a copy of "Aikido and the dynamic sphere" the 22 is also outlined there. It's pretty different from Saito's 31. It's easy to see how they could be coming from the same source, but I would say they are distinct creations.

Keith Larman 06-28-2009 10:35 AM

Re: Ni-Ju-Ni Jo Kata
 
Zombie-thread...


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