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-   -   Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8128)

AikiWeb System 05-15-2005 12:30 AM

Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 15, 2005:

Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

ShugyoSystems 05-15-2005 04:19 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Yes 6 votes (24%)
No 19 votes (76%)

Speechless

Paul Kerr 05-15-2005 04:22 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
About which part?

mj 05-15-2005 04:59 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
He can't say...he's speechless.

Anyway...which religion? Once you open this can of worms...you will need a bigger can to put them all back you know.

ShugyoSystems 05-15-2005 07:12 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I was speechless about the whole thing....

I'm surprised and somewhat disappointed to see these stats.

"The best way to beat an opponent is to use a gun"
Why practice aikido without religion?

Maybe I missed something....

stuartjvnorton 05-15-2005 08:22 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Personally, I've never understood why religion has anything to do with Aikido at all.

MaryKaye 05-15-2005 08:44 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
There doesn't seem to be any way to answer "It's good that some dojo incorporate religion and others don't." I think the diversity, here and elsewhere in aikido, is usually a strength and not a weakness.

Mary Kaye
(didn't vote, because there doesn't seem to be a correct answer)

siwilson 05-15-2005 09:51 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Todd, you've missed something!

Religion has no place in Aikido outside of what a person takes from "their" religion into their lives. O'Sensei (remember him) said Aikido is for all the world. If we start taking religion in to the dojo, then how are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. Aikidoka going to be able to study together. I have trained with many people of different faith, and also those of no faith, with no problem, because religion is not a matter for the dojo.

A definite NO!!!!

gstevens 05-15-2005 09:55 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Well said SI!!!!

Aikido is inclusive in who it brings together. Lets keep it that way.

Qatana 05-15-2005 10:14 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I think the issue is semantic. While I feel that Spirituality is integral to aikido training, that is specifically of the Spirit and has no relation to "outside divine influence".
However I do see a place for perhaps training in conjunction with specific practices (Buddhist meditation comes to mind, of course) or with specific religions ie., Akido and Christianity/Judaeism/etc, to understand how aikido Can work in a religious context.
and there's always Omoto-kyo.

SeiserL 05-15-2005 10:24 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

AikiWeb System wrote:
Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?

Should? Usually means it isn't. Should according to who?

Religion? Which religion? If we are true to O'Sensei that would be Omoto/Shinto. If by religion you mean to socio-political network used for self propagation and control, then no. If you are implying the spiritual beliefs that underlying the idea and practice that there is more to the world than my little ego and judgmental opinions about right/wrong and good/bad, then i can support spiritual teachings through the physical practice.

Play? Yes, we should enjoy ourself. IMHO, people take themselves far too seriously and too personally.

A part? Which part of the whole? How much? Implicitly taught through the techniques are explicit taught as conversion? IMHO, many of the spiritual concepts are implied in the techniques. It already is and will always be a part of Aikido whether people overtly practice it or not.

An? Not "the"?

Curriculum? According to which Sensei, school, style, or affiliation? To each there own.

So after all that, no.

oldshatterhand 05-15-2005 10:26 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
What is "Omoto-kyu"?.
Itīs anyway better than ask " What is religion",i think .
Religion is not (only) faith.Spirituality does not need to be included in a religion,etc,etc.....etc.

Y think the cuestion is too general to demand a short answer.

But ...What IS Omoto-kyu??.

Marxama 05-15-2005 10:37 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Alfredo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omoto-kyo I bet there are sites with better information, but this is something, I guess :)

ShugyoSystems 05-15-2005 03:27 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

Si Wilson wrote:
Todd, you've missed something!

Religion has no place in Aikido outside of what a person takes from "their" religion into their lives. O'Sensei (remember him) said Aikido is for all the world. If we start taking religion in to the dojo, then how are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. Aikidoka going to be able to study together. I have trained with many people of different faith, and also those of no faith, with no problem, because religion is not a matter for the dojo.

A definite NO!!!!

Perhaps if the world trained Aikido together and included all of those religions (and the others) the world could be a nicer place.

You asked "If we start taking religion in to the dojo, then how are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. Aikidoka going to be able to study together" and my answer is :ai:

ShugyoSystems 05-15-2005 04:14 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
Should? Usually means it isn't. Should according to who?

Or, that it already is, but that's under question. Or both. Or neither. Or Noth, or Beither ;)

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
Religion? Which religion? If we are true to O'Sensei that would be Omoto/Shinto. If by religion you mean to socio-political network used for self propagation and control, then no. If you are implying the spiritual beliefs that underlying the idea and practice that there is more to the world than my little ego and judgmental opinions about right/wrong and good/bad, then i can support spiritual teachings through the physical practice.

Well said

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
Play? Yes, we should enjoy ourself. IMHO, people take themselves far too seriously and too personally.

:yuck: WE DO NOT!!!! :hypno:

heheheheehh

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
A part? Which part of the whole? How much? Implicitly taught through the techniques are explicit taught as conversion? IMHO, many of the spiritual concepts are implied in the techniques. It already is and will always be a part of Aikido whether people overtly practice it or not.

How much? as my Mum used to say, "About as long as a piece of string"

That second bit is gold. I was hesitant to say it in here I thought I'd start a war ;) Couldn't agree more.

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
An? Not "the"?

See below

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
Curriculum? According to which Sensei, school, style, or affiliation? To each there own.

They'll all become one, one day. Maybe when the tectonic plates all merge and we are all melted into the magma and drawn over millions of years into the core of the earth... maybe sooner ;) :ai:

Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
So after all that, no.

Hehehehe :) Yeh I almost posted saying there should be a "maybe" button

DCP 05-15-2005 06:01 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I voted "no" because of the use of the word curiculum in the poll. If it's in the curriculum, then it is something graded. To grade someone based on religion/spirituality/etc. is not a power that any instructor should have (IMHO).

maikerus 05-15-2005 07:08 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I don't think religion should be taught and graded at the dojo (as Daniel said) so if there was a third choice of "Really NO!" I would've picked that one.

One thought...we've got all these hand techniques, then we've got all these weapons and techniques within them. There's really not enough time in a lifetime to learn those...where would you have time to train in religion, too, without watering everything else down? We only have a finite time at the dojo every week...go elsewhere for something else.

Is there a dojo out there that only teaches shihonage? I'd train there. One life...one thing.

My few yen,

--Michael

Chef CJ 05-15-2005 07:22 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I am new to the world of Aikido, so bear with me. I voted No to this particular question for a number of reasons:

1) It is my understanding that we are to clear our minds when on the mat of all things accept learning Aikido technique. Adding the dimension of religious rigors.

2) It is also my understanding that the goal of Aikido is to acheive "the way to spiritual harmony or harmony of the mind". How can adding a controversial and very personal subject such as religion help that acheivement.

3)It is my opinion that religion and spirituality are by definition 2 different things. They at times coincide but in no way are they interdependent.

Thank you for allowing me ths time and I look foward to train in Aikido for a long time and hope to meet some of you one day.

ajbarron 05-15-2005 08:15 PM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote Jo Adell

" I think the issue is semantic. While I feel that Spirituality is integral to aikido training, that is specifically of the Spirit and has no relation to "outside divine influence".
However I do see a place for perhaps training in conjunction with specific practices (Buddhist meditation comes to mind, of course) or with specific religions ie., Aikido and Christianity/Judaism/etc, to understand how aikido can work in a religious context.
and there's always Omoto-kyo."

IMHO Jo hit it right on. Aikido can be seen through the eyes of all spirituality/religions and it would be a pity if it was not practiced in that manner.

siwilson 05-16-2005 01:05 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

Todd Worth wrote:
Perhaps if the world trained Aikido together and included all of those religions (and the others) the world could be a nicer place.

Todd, how on Earth are you going to include every single religion in to Aikido? Aikido is about bringing people together, and nothing has done the opposite more than religion. It has absolutely no place in the dojo, outside of what an individual brings with them from outside. No religion should be pushed on anyone..

Dazzler 05-16-2005 03:25 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
My answer is a definite No.

But if they put aikido into religion the world would be a much better place.

IMHO

D

ps...absolutely no further comment on this.

ShugyoSystems 05-16-2005 04:30 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

Daniel Pierson wrote:
I voted "no" because of the use of the word curiculum in the poll. If it's in the curriculum, then it is something graded. To grade someone based on religion/spirituality/etc. is not a power that any instructor should have (IMHO).

Very good point Daniel!

ShugyoSystems 05-16-2005 04:40 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
Quote:

Si Wilson wrote:
Todd, how on Earth are you going to include every single religion in to Aikido? Aikido is about bringing people together, and nothing has done the opposite more than religion. It has absolutely no place in the dojo, outside of what an individual brings with them from outside. No religion should be pushed on anyone..

I didn't say anything about pushing a religion on anyone.

You say that nothing has done the opposite of bringing people together more than religion...

Is that the religion or the people?

It's far easier to blame the religion than to admit that the people are using it as a tool for their own evils.

ian 05-16-2005 06:45 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
I am shocked and disappointed that people said religion should play a part in aikido. Ueshiba specifically said that he was not teaching any religion (he expressed things in certain religious ways because that's how HE understood aikido).

Least cynically, religion is a belief system which people use for interpreting reality*. Aikido may be a way of examining certain underlying physical (and even psychological) principles - however, unlike religion, it is dynamic and flexible and utlimately should be judged purely on the experiences of the individual.

Todd suggests that it is individuals which are to blame for the atrocities performed in the name of religion - and I would agree. However religion allows these individuals to hide behind a 'cause' and thus permits society to excuse them of these atrocities, and can also incite these atrocities. Religion almost always creates a them and us situation, despite what is said in (often contradictory) texts. Also anyone that believes religion (rather than spirituality) is not created by man is a fool and doesn't know the history of their own religion. (for example how many Christians have read the book of Thomas, one of the oldest gospels, which was ommitted from the bible because it didn't agree with the Catholic view of Jesus?)

Sorry to rant - I get offended when people believe that religion is more valuable than reasoned argument. Religious groups have far too much say in politics as it is; why does the public assume that a cardinal, for example, has more right to voice an opinion about world issues than a philosopher?

* (Most cynically, it is a way of changing people's behaviour to suit your own objectives.)

ian 05-16-2005 06:59 AM

Re: Poll: Should religion play a part in an aikido curriculum?
 
PS. if you take religion into the dojo, what then happens to the athiests that want to train. I also disagree with this hippy idea that religions should all get together - people should just see beyond their religions and realise that different ideologies don't mix, but different people can.


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