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rob_liberti 05-12-2005 08:23 AM

covering your openings
 
Okay, I have a question. I was at a Saotome sensei seminar and one of the drills was hamni handachi katatetori shihonage.

First, the uke grabbed the wrist and then proceeded to kick nage with their opposite leg. No problem there, you just have to cover that area.

The next drill, the uke grabbed the wrist, and then proceeded to do a face punch with their opposite hand. No problem with that drill either, you just have to cover that area.

My problem was that I decided to try to grab, punch the face, and while the name was dealing with the punch (at the apex of lifting their arm) I did a roundhouse with my leg at them. I think I could hit them pretty hard. The nage could defend one but not the combination very well. I think the nage was lifting their arm too early, but I wonder if they didn't do that could I get a good punch in at them before they'd be able to defend it.

I don't know. I sword, it's pretty simple. You just keep your sword tip covering their middle, and thrust if they start getting too close and tryingto go around you. In open hand, covering ramdom combinations is a bit more difficult. I'm thinking that maybe the nage would need to take the attacking hand down a bit more to get a tilt in uke's shoulders. Any ideas? (Mine would be to not do shihonage there until I worked it out better!)

Rob

Pauliina Lievonen 05-12-2005 08:48 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Cool question. Hamni handachiwaza, I dunno. I think I'm going to try it out tomorrow after class. :)

Standing up, the way I've learned shihonage is that your arms and body go in two directions so to speak. You step toward uke, but arms are deflected in the direction where uke was originally going. Ukes own arm serves to block a punch with ukes free hand, and if the whole movement is done well enough, uke ends up standing on the toes of their front foot, so kicking would be difficult (I've tried it). Hamni handachi though, I don't know if it's possible to get uke out of balance enough in this way. It'll be fun to try though, i'll post about it if we get any interesting results... :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Dazzler 05-12-2005 08:55 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Hi Rob

My though is that you were allowing yourself as Tori freedom to vary the attacks while uke is restricted to trying to make shihonage.

Take away that restriction and everything changes.

You said it yourself....they are just drills.

And not doing shihonage is probably the answer...do something else.

Cheers

D

Dazzler 05-12-2005 08:56 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
Cool question. Hamni handachiwaza, I dunno. I think I'm going to try it out tomorrow after class. :)

Standing up, the way I've learned shihonage is that your arms and body go in two directions so to speak. You step toward uke, but arms are deflected in the direction where uke was originally going. Ukes own arm serves to block a punch with ukes free hand, and if the whole movement is done well enough, uke ends up standing on the toes of their front foot, so kicking would be difficult (I've tried it). Hamni handachi though, I don't know if it's possible to get uke out of balance enough in this way. It'll be fun to try though, i'll post about it if we get any interesting results... :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Blocks? there are blocks in aikido? :freaky:

Pauliina Lievonen 05-12-2005 09:27 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
Blocks? there are blocks in aikido? :freaky:

When you get uke to block themselves, yeah. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Dazzler 05-12-2005 09:31 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Ahh ha...you have me there!

If you can get them to punch themselves too then I will be really impressed! :D

Cheers

D

Ron Tisdale 05-12-2005 09:31 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Blocks? Darn tootin'...ayate yoke, sankaku yoke, all kinds of yoke... yokeru, to avoid. I think the misunderstanding comes in that people think static blocks where you stand still and try to stop the attack. I believe this to be a false premise. Combine as many levels of protection as you can, [move, atemi, block], 3 levels of protection. This does not require stoping uke's momentum.

Which brings us to hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage. Again, I was taught (in Daito ryu and yoshinkan aikido) to lock and enter at the same time. When uke grabs you must enter (using shikko-ho) into their center. Entering with the lock applied prevents them from striking (and certainly from kicking) as they should be off balance with their body 'open' and turned already. Daito ryu adds to the lock by using the forehead against the elbow to enhance the lock and enforce the throw.

Not that its easy....:) Maybe a bit of the Magic Mr. Szcepan often refers to is required... :)

The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread). I think this is what makes unbalancing the uke at the very first instant so important. Its just that that can be very difficult to do...If you do get the elbow straight though, using the forehead to maintain the elbow lock would seem to prevent Ellis's counter from working. But I haven't tried this with him yet! I have a feeling it might not work against him... :crazy:

Best,
Ron

ps Michael or Steven...do you have a step by step description of this technique?

James Davis 05-12-2005 09:50 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
It sounds a little like nage is sitting still when the attack comes. :straightf Get to knee walking! Maybe the dojo where I train is different than most, but we're allowed to "break the ice" with other techniques so long as we finish with the technique that sensei asked for. The element of surprise is a very valuable tool. If your uke is taking for granted that you're going to hold still and let him grab or hit you, wake him up! :eek: Move your hand just a little. Get him to advance just a little further than he planned. Take his balance and have fun! :p

Dazzler 05-12-2005 09:55 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Hi Ron

was a somewhat facetious post of mine...my issue with blocks are force against force.

So sure...blocks exist , but in my training I'm looking to blend rather than block...from a point of principle if uke attacks then i'll evade and counter. If uke grabs and pulls then I'll try and blend with irimi.

Blocking is a possibility for many...but if youre 6 stone receiving a 15 stone attack (sorry don't do kilos)...then evasion .....aka ying against yang is the answer.

Trying to beef out a strong opponent whos launched an attack to me is not really using the aggressors force against him.

Don't want to hijack the thread so back to shiho nage...lets not forget that we are talking about 4 directional throw..although variations are infinite depending on the precise nature of ukes attack.

I like paulinna's option of using the movement generated by turning the hips to restrict ukes follow up options ...either ukes arm stops a jodan level attack or the turn of ukes body restricts kicking.

Certainly not the sort of block I originally thought of though.

As for Robs original question...well hamni handachi waza ...and suwari waza are both teaching aids...aren't they? They restrictions on toris movement make it highly unfair to start throwing in extra strikes and expecting tori to compete with a standing opponent.

Cheers and thanks

D

MatthewJones 05-12-2005 10:27 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Ah yes, the misconception that a block has to be two forearms smashing into each other at right angles. Blocks can be many things. Even hard styles of striking arts rarely just post up a forearm and wait for the strike to smash into it. :uch: :uch: :uch:

rob_liberti 05-12-2005 11:44 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
I saw a goju karate guy stand there and let a kempo guy try to kick through his block. The kemp guy was decent, but he admitted that it hurt his shin and the kick didn't get through. But, I am not looking for blocks like that for myself. I'd rather just figure out the optimal place to move given a situation and continue to go there.
Rob

Ron Tisdale 05-12-2005 12:02 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Hi Rob, that's the point (hopefully it was clear) of what I was saying, enter and use the wrist grab of uke to turn his body. We didn't do any hanmi handachi with Ikeda Sensei when we were there recently, but I think his style would be similar to yours...When you grabbed his wrist, he took your balance and opened you to shiho by moving his center (his arm was of course attached to it:)). That movment opened your body so that you couldn't effectively strike or kick, and shiho (or pretty much whatever) was there. Doing that from your knees must be harder...but still doable.

Ron

Ron Tisdale 05-12-2005 12:04 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Hi Darin,

I can't imagine why anyone would block force against force if they could move. Who would ever 'beef it out' against someone stronger and hope to win? Not that aikido is about winning and losing :)

RT

Pauliina Lievonen 05-12-2005 01:05 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
Ahh ha...you have me there!

If you can get them to punch themselves too then I will be really impressed! :D

Cheers

D

I have managed to slap myself with uke's hand, does that count?
:o :p :D
Ok I don't have anything useful to say, I'll shut up now. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

senshincenter 05-12-2005 02:30 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Rob,

Assuming this is a drill...

I'm not sure I understand clearly what you are describing but based upon what I'm getting - here's what I think might be being left out:

To the Irimi and the lock (things both suggested by Ron and others) I would add that would needs to make sure that there is actually a Yin upon which to enter (Yang). Toward this end, one has to not only use the lock to create various angles of cancellation along the homo and cross-lateral sides of uke's body, one must also use the lock (in combination with rest of one's te-sabaki) to sort of move uke out of the way and around oneself (nage). In a way, while nage does enter, uke and nage sort of pass each other via circles that are going outward from each other and in the opposite directions. Uke does not just stand there while nage closes the distance and/or penetrates uke's sphere of influence. There is no Yin to this.

Since nage and uke are sort of passing each other, whatever is not canceled out via any angle of cancellation generated by the lock is nevertheless checked because a line of attack can never be established on target by uke. Nage's goals are twofold: to create angles of cancellation that would address cross-lateral lines (e.g. punches and kicks with the opposite hand/foot) AND to not allow uke's Line of Attack to establish a positive vector on Nage's own Path of Action (i.e. angle of entry). Uke and Nage must pass each other - not just Nage passing Uke. When Nage and Uke pass each other like this, Uke is way too turned out to bring the cross-lateral weapons to bare.

Maybe that is what might be missing...?

david

maikerus 05-12-2005 07:53 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
ps Michael or Steven...do you have a step by step description of this technique?

Hmm...I'm not really sure what this thread is about and I've read it through 3 times. Hopefully tha won't stop me from commenting on hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage ichi (which I'm guessing is the question).

Okay...here goes.

1. Shite sits in seiza with hand on front part of knee; uke approaches slightly form the outside of the knee. They grab and pull up toward them selves (toward their center is the best spot).

2. Push off the top of the outside foot (which is touching the mat in seiza) about 2/3 of the way into uke's stance. The arms should move in kamae with uke's pull into a circle into uke and then out into your center, lightly hooking the outside hand baby finger onto uke's grabbing wrist. It's important not to lose contact with uke's hand at this point and the gripped arm should push into the V of uke's grip so they can't let go.

3. Push the hands forward and up to your forehead as in shumatsu dosa while at the same time lean back as far as you can keeping your back straight.

4. When you get to the point where you can't lean back any more because you will be lieing on the ground, or falling onto the ground, lift your outside knee up and and swing it around to point in the other direction (180 degress from where it started). Your weight should stay centered on you ankles as you shift about bringing your hands to kamae positiion. At this point you should be prallel to uke.

5. From here, bring uke down in shihonage to your center.

6. Drop uke in shihonage

7. Shift forward using the front knee to close the osae

8. Bring your striking hand to your forhead and strike uke between the eyes.

I think that's about it. There are probably some subtle points that I am forgetting.

cheers,

--Michael

maikerus 05-12-2005 08:19 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Oh...one more point. At #2 above uke's arm and shoulder should be locked and their balance taken so they can't hit or kick you.

FWIW,

--MIchael

rob_liberti 05-12-2005 08:20 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Hi all,

I think the problem is that once I grab the uke who is in on their knees, they are not moving nearly as freely as I am when I'm the standing uke and I am VERY close. My wrist is farily flexible so that move to get uke to wrap around the nage is more of a choice for me at the initial moment of the grab. It can be "put on" but I'm not sure it can be put on before I can get my other attacks in. They can try to take my angles of attack away from me as the uke, but I'm feeling like I have a fixed point (which may be moving, but still basically only moving relative to _both_ of us) and I'm close enough that I can attack faster than the average nage's reaction time from that distance given that I can spin around my grab for a kick and/or attack their head with a punch almost instantly.

I didn't actually get a chance to try to solve the problem as the nage - I was just giving my partner the next natural thing that made sense (to me) as the uke. I was hoping he'd respoind in kind so I could try to work it out. I think Darren's suggestion that you probably cannot get away with shihonage in that position against a more random attack is appropriate for my level of understanding. However, I am hoping to transcend my current level, so suggestions like David's seem useful - although I'm not sure how to actually implement those ideas. But I'll try!!!

Thanks for the ideas, all..

Rob

eyrie 05-12-2005 08:48 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Gee David, you lost me. Try explaining that to a 12 year old... ;)

I think Ron was close on the button, and I'm sure David was too, just that I couldn't understand a word he was saying. :D

I think the idea is how do you off balance the person as they attempt to grab your wrist before they can follow up with a strike. I think any idea of "blocking" anything from hanmi han dachi is moot - you will get hit. If not the first, then the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc., as Rob pointed out.

Rob, if you've seen Takeda do this one, you'll see him draw uke into his center and atemi the face, whilst continuing to draw uke into an arc so that uke ends up circling around Takeda's back straight into shionage. I believe the draw in and around the back, coupled with the atemi in the direction you want uke to go, is enough to nullify any notion of throwing a strike or kick in as uke is already off balance and playing catch up to Takeda - whom I have seen many times do this move from the seated position without so much as shifting. All his hands do is move in an up-down motion, but it feels like he is using his body (center) to draw you into this big black hole. :O

maikerus 05-12-2005 09:45 PM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote:
Hi all,

I think the problem is that once I grab the uke who is in on their knees, they are not moving nearly as freely as I am when I'm the standing uke and I am VERY close. My wrist is farily flexible so that move to get uke to wrap around the nage is more of a choice for me at the initial moment of the grab. It can be "put on" but I'm not sure it can be put on before I can get my other attacks in.

Just a thought, but perhaps hanmi handachi is more a training exercise than an actual technique.

Which means that deciding to attack in a contrived fashion of reaching down and grabbing a wrist that's resting on a knee and *then* deciding to attack a different way just doesn't make a lot of sense.

--Michael

Charlie 05-13-2005 03:46 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
What is really being questioned here? Hanmi handachi techniques were viable techniques for their time...and they still are! Almost anything that you can do standing you can do sitting! But we all know that right? Not to mention that tachi waza improves immensely by mastering suwari waza.

What Ron and David were saying is right on. Too often you see people applying the technique without true control of uke's center allowing them to harbor the misconception that they might be able to "sneak" a punch or kick in there somewhere.

The cross step while entering to prepare to apply the take down must have control of uke's center. As David said, this moves uke center around making it safe to cross in front of him WITHOUT fear of being stricken. Why, because you have moved uke's center out of the way and unbalanced them. Hopefully at this point their center is rotating and they are up on their toes.

How is that achieved, well Michael Stuempel's posts addresses that. It is all in the hand placement or grip on the wrist depending on which attack.

So the next question addresses strikes after the grab, right? Your to late!!! You have to be moving upon the initial grab...you've made a decision to attack the grabbing hand already. Any secondary strike after that is just that, secondary. If you don't have what you need to handle the primary attack then adapt and do what you can with the secondary.

I am assuming that all that are participating in this thread have been uke in this technique. How viable is it to reach down to grab someone's hand and then try to hit/kick someone? It can be done but is not very effective. Just the act of bending over to grab someone puts you too off balance to generate any power. That being the case, in the course of a true attack the attacker would have to make a decision to EITHER grab or strike. Since I am not Jackie Chan or Jet Li, I do not see myself being attacked in this fashion anytime soon!

In learning this technique from Amos Parker Sensei it was always stressed to initiate movement BEFORE uke gets a solid grip on you. This is not new. Daito Ryu stresses the same principle.

Here is a lovely exposition of shihonage techniques http://www.myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Shihonage.wmv

Regards,

Jorx 05-13-2005 05:30 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Kicking in clinchrange with roundhouse should mean an instant takedown... wristcontrol is not enough to prevent that. Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual "martial" part... Reality check needed,

Jorx 05-13-2005 05:33 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Ah... did not notice the hamni handachi part. Move forward. Shoot low single leg takedown would be the actual practical solution. However... talking about Aikido - just irimi to the wrist grabbing side - he cannot overcommit a kick to there. Weather the followup is a shihonage or something else is irrelevant.

Dazzler 05-13-2005 05:48 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
Quote:

Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Ah... did not notice the hamni handachi part. Move forward. Shoot low single leg takedown would be the actual practical solution. However... talking about Aikido - just irimi to the wrist grabbing side - he cannot overcommit a kick to there. Weather the followup is a shihonage or something else is irrelevant.

Single leg takedown , reclining leg takedown with reverse elbow shot to groin...whatever.

It all boils down to what are you using the exercise to develop?

Is it just to fight?

Is it to work principles?

As can be seen on multiple threads what you use the training for depends on your background.

Yoshinkan see it one way, aikikai another, shudokan / tomiki another. Aiki jutsu and MMA other ways. Ki aikido is different again.

what is interesting though is that ultimately you propose to just get in there...in my experience this is our bottom line too.

So maybe we are all climbing to the top of the same mountain...but chose different routes?

This is why I've not proferred a definitive how to do shiho nage post...really you do it to suit your training methodology which is widely different depending on style. What means something to me may sound ridiculous to someone coming from another angle.

FWIW

Cheers

D

philipsmith 05-13-2005 06:12 AM

Re: covering your openings
 
I've struggling with this thread a little. Are you saying that in a "real" fight you would never get hit? If so that in my experience is a nonsense.

Also counter to this that or the other attack cannot be planned.

Aikido's effectiveness is limited by the skill of its practitioner and also by circumstance.

Example I was once uke for a Shihan who "cocked up" his technique and left a huge opening. Reflexly he simply knocked me to the floor.

Was it Aikido or not?


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