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-   -   Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8077)

AikiWeb System 05-08-2005 12:30 AM

Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 8, 2005:

How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Entirely realistic
  • Very realistic
  • Somewhat realistic
  • Not very realistic
  • Not at all realistic
Here are the current results.

Chuck Clark 05-08-2005 12:55 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
In social self-defense situations rather than combat during war, aikido is one system among many others that emphasizes "doing as little harm as possible." It is not only "very realistic" but absolutely necessary for humanity.

Even during war we must keep to "rules" in order to be able to live with ourselves and our former enemies after the battles have become history.

ruthmc 05-08-2005 02:33 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
It very much depends upon what level you are at....

Ruth

SeiserL 05-08-2005 09:06 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
IMHO, any goal is "realistic" if ou are willing to put in the time to train for it.

There are only three steps. One, what do you want? Two, what do you have to do to reach/get it? Three, do it until you got it.

siwilson 05-08-2005 09:07 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
It very much depends on the attack!

There is a world of difference between the drunk who telegraphs a hay-maker a you, and the guy with a knife threatening you, your wife and/or kids.

There are situations where it is kill or be killed - I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!!!

Don_Modesto 05-08-2005 11:05 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
"Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?"

Before the engagement, very. That attitude--compassion?--will lessen the likelihood of conflict to begin with. This is aikido.

Also, I thought this was nicely put (boldface is mine):

Quote:

Chuck Clark wrote:
In social self-defense situations rather than combat during war, aikido is one system among many others that emphasizes "doing as little harm as possible." It is not only "very realistic" but absolutely necessary for humanity.

Even during war we must keep to "rules" in order to be able to live with ourselves and our former enemies...
.


ESimmons 05-08-2005 11:32 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, any goal is "realistic" if you are willing to put in the time to train for it.

This is, essentially, why I voted for entirely realistic. Admittedly, I had a difficult time figuring out in my mind what exactly the question was asking. I think it's pretty open to interpretation.

Paul Kerr 05-08-2005 12:13 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I really can't comment until the terms of the proposition are much more narrowly and explicitly defined than they are now.

maikerus 05-08-2005 06:28 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I'd say that they are two seperate things.

Defending yourself...realistic and very important.

Minimizing damage to your attacker...laudable, but it should not interfere with the First Law (above).

As a goal, "Minimizing Damage" is great; in that far future when I understand what is going on and can control the situation by a look. Realistic...probably depends on the person.

I wonder, however, how many of us have the training to make this a personal goal in a confrontation *right now*. I certainly don't. As Si said..."better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

cheers,

--Michael

stuartjvnorton 05-08-2005 08:17 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I'm there with Ruth.
Seems to me that it's a whole lot easier (technique-wise, as opposed to morally or any other way) to plant someone's head into the ground than to restrain them with no lasting injury, especially when they're resisting.

L. Camejo 05-08-2005 08:28 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Quote:

AikiWeb System wrote:
How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Voted somewhat realistic.

It all depends on the attacker's desire for harmony, i.e. harmony with the asphalt, harmony with the concrete wall, harmony with the lamp post or the harmony of escaping unhurt when he realises he messed with the wrong mofo this time.:D evileyes

It's all about what the attacker needs to find harmony imho.;)
LC:ai::ki:

kironin 05-09-2005 12:04 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
What Chuck and Lynn said.

I don't think of this as an "aikido" notion.

More like aikido is a path to work on moving closer to several
desirable goals like this one. At least I see it as being part of
attempting to becoming a more mature, compassionate being.

xuzen 05-09-2005 01:38 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I voted somewhat realistic.

It is something I look forward to be able to do in the future. However at this moment in time of training, I do not have the ability to defend myself realistically and at the same time guarantee only minimal damage to my would be attacker. I am not that good yet.

Boon.

P/s: I've just read "Canon of Judo" by K. Mifune and there is one sentence in it that says, "Judo is jujutsu infused with morality". IMO, aikido is jujutsu infused with compassion. What do you all think?

Rupert Atkinson 05-09-2005 02:59 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I voted 'somewhat'.

In general, Aikido attracts the very people it aims to create - those who want to solve conflicts peacefully. But the first goal they need to set is to make the stuff they learn work for them. Accordingly, they find themselves facing the contradiction of having to face the 'war' of it for a long time before achieving something resembling 'peace.' Avoiding is all well and good, but when push comes to shove, simply, you cannot give mercy unless you have the ability to destroy.

Yann Golanski 05-09-2005 04:07 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
I heard that once upon a time there were three brothers who searched for enlightenment. They heard of a really holly man who lived on top of a snake infested mountain. They all decided to seek his help but all travelled alone.

The first one met a venomous snake on his way. He walked around it as he did not want to either harm the snake nor be harmed by it. The second brother met another snake. He killed it as this would allow others to pass safely on their way to see the master. The third brother met yet another one of the those snakes. He stopped, talked to the snake and taught the snake not to use its venom in anger. Then he went onwards to meet the master.

Once all three brothers were in the presence of the master, he asked them about their encounter with the snakes. After all three brothers gave their story, he said that he would accept the first and second ones but that the third he could not teach. When his two new students asked him why he rejected the third brother, the master just shrugged and said: "I have nothing to teach him that he does not already know."

I have no idea why I posted this...

Rupert Atkinson 05-09-2005 08:44 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Nice story, but the third brother can't stop and talk to the snake unless he is well-trained in dealing with snakes - one false step and you're dead. I wonder how many snakes he killed until he got to that level? And I wonder what and how the master is going to teach the first two brothers to get them to that level?

mathewjgano 05-09-2005 09:11 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
What makes this "entirely realistic" is the relativistic terminology of "minimizing" and "goal." To minimize is to do as little as possible. The greater we become in our awareness of Aikido, the easier it is to manifest the goal and make it more and more possible. We must train in every moment of our lives and as well as we can, that we may encounter more and more difficult situations and still make them win-win situations.

Lorien Lowe 05-09-2005 02:40 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
What Matthew said above. The 'mimimum' damage to an attacker may actually be quite serious, depending on the attacks and on the defender's skill level.

-LK

ian 05-10-2005 04:27 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
From practical experience, I have been very pleased with the limited damage which has occurred to me and to attackers. I think very importantly as well, the whole training method often results in attacks not being instigated in the first place (since you do not have to 'challenge' an attacker or adopt a threatening stance to assert your confidence).

Ian

James Davis 05-10-2005 10:01 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
When we think of an attacker, often we envision the stereotypical "mean drunk". I can understand why some people might not be too concerned for the well being of some maniac that was trying to kill them :crazy: , but what if it were one's grandmother? What if she were an alzheimers patient and didn't recognize them? What if an "attacker" happened to be a twelve year old nephew? These are situations in which self control is very important! Train to be gentle. This is Aikido. ;)

mriehle 05-10-2005 10:46 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Another story, this one personal.

At a certain point in my training I realized I was able to defend myself, but that I could not guarantee the safety of my attacker. I simply wasn't good enough. So, when someone tried to start something with me I would explain that to them.

"Look, I don't know if I will actually be to defend myself effectively. I'm pretty sure, though, that if I do you will get hurt. There's a good chance that even if I don't you will get hurt. I'm just not good enough at my art to be sure I can use it without hurting you, so I'd really rather you didn't force me to try.'

The thing is, if you say this in the right spirit (real concern for the other person) they will take it seriously and - at least in my experience - back off. I guess there is something really frightening about someone telling you that they really don't want to hurt you, but they will forced to do so if you attack and they aren't even concerned about winning the fight.

Some of you will have noticed that I defended myself without hurting anyone. Okay, it didn't always work, but when it did the outcome was ideal, IMO.

acot 05-14-2005 11:02 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourse
 
Great Poll. It has given a lot of room for discussion. Aikido is the way of harmonizing energy. Most people think they are on the moral high ground in a fight. The best way is to flow with what ever happens, and let nature take its course. (as it will rather you want it to or not). Trying to not damage an attacker during a confrontation is not a realistic goal unless you have trained for it, and you have kept a level head in the midst of the situation.

maikerus 05-15-2005 07:35 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Wasn't there a story about how Ueshiba M. didn't want to demonstrate his Aikido in front of the emperor because true Aikido would result in a dead uke? Word came back that it was okay to just show a watered down form where the uke didn't die so Ueshiba M. did the demo.

That would seem to me to suggest that "true Aikido" would not focus on protecting your enemy.

Anyway...

--Michael

Chef CJ 05-15-2005 09:10 PM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Is it also not true that the foundations of Aikido were based on the ability of O Sensei to defeat an enemy without laying a hand on him? It would seem or at least what I have been taught thus far is that we are to remain safe and try to reach harmony with out injury if possible. The attacker does dictate his own fate to an extent as well the level-headedness and skill of the practitioner.

siwilson 05-16-2005 01:20 AM

Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
 
Quote:

Charles Moulton wrote:
Is it also not true that the foundations of Aikido were based on the ability of O Sensei to defeat an enemy without laying a hand on him?

This is where we manage to avoid conflict. The problem with those quotes is you get the Aiki nutty fairies trying to throw people without touching them.

I was at a seminar a few months back where we were doing Irimi Nage. I drove this guy in the direction of the tatami. He got up saying, "What are you doing? What are you doing? You're not supposed to touch me! You're just supposed to show your arm in front of my face and I fall over!" So I took him out ever harder the second time!

That is the problem with random quotes from O'Sensei - people twist it. I mean, some people even start refusing to train somewhere because of the way they will have to dress! :rolleyes:


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