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-   -   How many practice Rokkyo? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8033)

ChrisHein 05-03-2005 02:04 AM

How many practice Rokkyo?
 
I teach and practice Rokkyo on a regular basis, it however seem that many school have dropped it. I was wondering what schools it's still prevalent in.

-Chris

PeterR 05-03-2005 02:39 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
That depends on the school.

For some Rokkyo is only a reversed grip ikkyo, for others its a wakigatame.

We do both regularily.

grondahl 05-03-2005 02:57 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
That depends on the school.

For some Rokkyo is only a reversed grip ikkyo, for others its a wakigatame.

We do both regularily.

Reversed grip ikkyo, thats how i would describe gokkyo.
Does wakigatame focus on elbow or shoulder-control?

ChristianBoddum 05-03-2005 04:12 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Isnīt Rokkyo the "elbowcrusher" - shihonage going to the other shoulder ?
Iīve seen this done in Daito Ryu as a throw , scary stuff :eek:

Aikilove 05-03-2005 04:41 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
There are others too like "nanakyo" and hachikyo etc etc. They are not even named most of the times but only refered to as henka wasa of ikkyo or jonkyo etc.

Rokkyo however is probably a borderline general kihon. One can see both 2nd and 3rd doshu do this frequently against jo tsuki etc.

A try to explain it: Take a karate like tsuki at chest level delivered with ukes right hand (your left side). Sidestep slightly to your left and meet the punching arm from the side with your left hand( like you were about to do kote gaeshi but more to the outside of ukes hand instead of on top of it).

Extend the punch forward and down while you do a tenkan (again kind of like kote gaeshi).

At the same time let your right hand, palm up, grab the punching hand from below.

Now, when ukes hand has been guided down and to the side (thus taking ukes balance), let your left hand grip roll away from your belly and your right hand roll towards your belly, rotating ukes arm in the process, exposing his elbow toward you.

This is done at the same time as the tenkan is completed, your lower left arm making full contact with ukes arm, your hand now leading ukes hand up, but with the contact of your left arm with ukes arm keeping his elbow low, thus creating a lever to lower ukes whole body down.

The pressure should be to the side of ukes elbow i.e. 90 degrees angle away from straight in to the elbow oposite how the elbow bends.

The end position should be something like you lowering you hip to secure the downwards pressure on the side of ukes elbow. Ukes arm should be pointing almost verticaly up. You maintaining the grip with both hands at about chest height. Your left foot forward.

Hard to do, quite dangerous to train fast, but fun to train.

O, btw. I think I've heard this one being refered to as waki gatame too.

Train safe!

Greg Jennings 05-03-2005 06:56 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Hey Peter,

Rokkyo is AKA "Hiji Osae". It is the "elbow crushing" technique someone above mentioned. That to which some practice as a reverse grip ikkyo is Gokyo or "Ude Nobashi" ==> "Arm Stretching".

There are various flavors of rokkyo, but to me the big difference is in the "Elbow crushing" flavor and the "lever the tricep in the arm pit" flavor. The latter, I think, captures the original intent better while the latter is friendlier to uke and is often easier to teach.

FWIW,

batemanb 05-03-2005 09:27 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
We practice rokkyo at our dojo, also known as hijishime (elbow lock). Quite a few variations of it, but basically take the arm as if doing nikkyo, then continue to wind uke's arm up as much as you can. Place your elbow over uke's elbow and then turn your hips into it, a very powerful lock and requires great care not to snap uke's arm.

rgds

Bryan

akiy 05-03-2005 10:01 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Funny, I was just showing this technique (rokkyo) to a dojomate last night for tantodori...

-- Jun

senshincenter 05-03-2005 10:12 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
We practice it as well.

NagaBaba 05-03-2005 10:20 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

happysod 05-03-2005 10:29 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient
Honestly, it exists, I've seen it! Oh wait, you mean you don't like it? It's actually not bad as a catch-up technique if your ikkyo goes pear-shaped, but I'd agree it wouldn't make my top 5.

Pauliina Lievonen 05-03-2005 10:36 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

Maybe you should mention this to Alex (of the "Defending against aikido" thread). :)

We do this technique also, especially in tantodori. Our syllabus seems to give three alternative names, udehishigi/ hijikimeosae/ rokkyo, also called "terrible elbow lock" when people get confused with all the names - it sounds funnier in Dutch... :p

kvaak
Pauliina

Nick Simpson 05-03-2005 10:37 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Amen to that. I always use it when I mess up my ikkyo or if uke is being arkward, people dont half drop straight to the floor :)

Ron Tisdale 05-03-2005 10:44 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.
I'm a little confused...are you saying this relative to hiji shime/ wakigatame? Aren't most ufc type matches ended with a simple arm bar of some type? These are trained attackers, and they are tapping regularly to this type of technique. Waki gatame is a long time judo standard for submission...

Just currious,
Ron

jester 05-03-2005 11:19 AM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

Not sure what you mean by illusory. Waki-gatame is really very efficient. It can be done from a punch, a thrust, or a push where the arm is extended, if the attacker pulls back and bends his arm, you can go right into Kote Gaeshi. The 2 techniques work together.

If you try Kote Gaeshi, and the attacker extends his arm to over power you, his arm will go right into waki-gatame.

If you throw Kote Gaeshi down the line of uke's feet, waki gatame will be thrown perpendicular to his feet. This is an almost unbeatable combination.

If you try to get waki gatame on a resistant uke, and you don't look at other options, then of course the technique will fail.

ChrisHein 05-03-2005 12:18 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
It also combo's nicely with nikkyo. It's hard to make nikkyo work if uke resists by straightining his elbow, but it will set up nicely with Rokkyo.

-Chris

Fred Little 05-03-2005 01:39 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

One of the points that a number of my teachers emphasized on the question of rokkyo vs. ikkyo took a simlar tack: ikkyo enables nage to deal with an attacker who has trained enough to know better to present a straight arm.

But I think the KISS principle holds. If uke offers a straight arm, take the rokkyo.

It usually doesn't take too many repetitions for uke to begin to turn into a "trained attacker."

And then it's a pretty simple matter to return to regularly scheduled ikkyo keiko....

FL

NagaBaba 05-03-2005 01:44 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
I'm a little confused...are you saying this relative to hiji shime/ wakigatame? Aren't most ufc type matches ended with a simple arm bar of some type? These are trained attackers, and they are tapping regularly to this type of technique. Waki gatame is a long time judo standard for submission...

Just currious,
Ron

But they work this technique in ne-waza, straightening bended elbow. It is difficult but possible, cos one can use all his body to do it. Ever try do it standing on resisting/countering attacker? :D

In aikido it is very common, that uke has already arm straight, right from the beginning of attack. Nage has nothing to do to set up his arm. That fact creates illusion of magnificent efficency of this technique. :p
Hi Pauliina,
Tantodori is another terrible illusion. :D

Quote:

If you try Kote Gaeshi, and the attacker extends his arm to over power you, his arm will go right into waki-gatame.
jester,
Don't be offended, but it is very simplistic way of countering Kote Gaeshi, not worth even to study. May be, when you do compet with rules and all, attacker can feel safe to do it, but normally his elbow will be broken. Thats why one can't counter this way. Particularly when you counter, one must always maintain martial spirit, and expects the worst/most devastating respons for his counter.

ChrisHein,
again, wrong way to counter nikyo. No martial spirit at all. You can't limit yourself to such simplistic scenario.

Ron Tisdale 05-03-2005 02:20 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
I'm not so sure...I've had people throw me with my elbow not completely straight in hiji shime, but the lock went through to the shoulder anyway, and I had to take the ukemi. And it was someone smaller than I am who did it. When I attack yokomenuchi my arm is in kamae position...not completely straight...but when my teacher does hiji shime he doesn't have to twist or torque the arm; he breaks my balance, I float for a second, and the lock is on. I also know people who have defended themselves from attacks using this technique.

So I see it used in newaza, standup attacks, and dojo situations. Doesn't seem so magical to me...not to mention that if I apply it standing and the elbow doesn't lock out, I just remove my feet from the ground and WALA! we have a reclining pin! Ok, and maybe uke has a hyperextended elbow...but what the hey...you can't have everything... :)

Ron

jester 05-03-2005 03:17 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
jester,
Don't be offended, but it is very simplistic way of countering Kote Gaeshi, not worth even to study.

No offense, but I have no clue what your talking about.

If I try WakiGatame and you pull your arm in to protect it, you will go down with KoteGaeshi. I can almost 100% guarantee it.

Ron Tisdale 05-03-2005 03:25 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Maybe when he said straigten, he didn't mean lock the elbow....

senshincenter 05-03-2005 04:05 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments. For example, if one were to jump from Ideal phase training like Rokkyo against a punch and/or against a knife to the expectation that one can defend oneself with Rokkyo against someone that is punching them and/or attempting to stab them with a knife - then, yeah, that would seem a bit delusional.

Still, Rokkyo is a viable technique, and like a whole lot of other Kihon Waza, it really finds its tactical viability when one transcends and/or departs from basic training and/or whenever one understands basic training in a way that is different from modern day scenario-based self-defense training.

Along the same line of thought - at our dojo we don't do anything empty-handed against a knife/tanto. Why? Because, even when we want to understand principles through our Kihon Waza, we can do so in ways that are not so "distant" from actual applications. For similar reasons, we don't practice Rokkyo against mune-tsuki - at least not the way it was shown to me by my various Shihan (e.g. uke comes flying in with an over-extended punch that remains thus as nage applies Rokkyo). Rather, we tend to study Rokkyo from fixated attacks (e.g. grabs) and/or when we apply it against ballistic attacks (e.g. strikes) we tend to have some other move, situation, event, or response, etc., that leads into the opening for Rokkyo.

ChrisHein 05-03-2005 04:26 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Szczepan Janczuk, I really can't tell when you're jokeing......

-Chris Hein

jester 05-03-2005 04:53 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
Quote:

David Valadez wrote:
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments.

Maybe I have to see how Rokkyo differs from what I am envisioning it looking like. I haven't seen it practiced in any other school other than mine, and a Miyama Ryu Jiujitsu school I attended.

I guess it all depends on the way the attacker attacks. It's probably easier to get against pushing type grabs etc. I would think that if you didn't interupt uke's balance, it would be very hard to pull off.

anyone know some good video links?

jester 05-03-2005 04:59 PM

Re: How many practice Rokkyo?
 
I found this thread that also talked about Rokkyo

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103


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