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-   -   Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8000)

Ron Tisdale 04-27-2005 08:41 AM

Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hi All,

I would like to thank Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei and the Boulder Aikikai for sharing their spring seminar with Yukio Utada Sensei and the Doshinkan dojo. My dojo mates and I really appreciated your warm welcome and fine training. I hope that anyone I met on the mat will say hi on-line...I'm really bad with names, but I'd like to stay in contact with you all. Since my brother lives near Boulder, I hope to visit again soon.

I'd also like to thank Utada Sensei for his teaching there. I really appreciate his openness and ability. Its a privilege to study under a really forward thinking instructor.

I really enjoyed the entire seminar. I'm thinking about some new ways to do reviews besides just listing techniques and thanking folks...but I haven't come up with a format yet. If I do, I'll post it under this thread.

Best wishes to all,
Ron

bkedelen 04-27-2005 11:26 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Thanks for sharing your training with us Ron. It is great to have leaders like Utada Sensei and Ikeda Sensei proving that ryu is just a convention and should not prevent everyone from coming together in the spirit of Aikido.

Dan Rubin 04-27-2005 12:58 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
"Thanks" to Utada Sensei and five of his students for travelling such a distance to train with us. And "thanks" to you, Ron, for seeing me practicing a movement as I walked to lunch, and yelling "Looks like an aikido student!" instead of "Do you need an ambulance?"

Dan

Ron Tisdale 04-27-2005 01:35 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
:) Hey Dan! Good to know you online...What did they call that...saint vitus's dance? :)

It was good to train and eat with you. Hope to see you on the mat soon!
Best,
Ron

Paula Lydon 04-27-2005 02:13 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hi Ron! Again, thanks for coming, playing and the wonderful conversation over coffee. Very much enjoyed your energy. Sorry for knocking your glasses off--twice! Get one of those sport bungies for glasses. Come by when you visit your brother and romp again!

Take care, Paula

Ron Tisdale 04-27-2005 02:21 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
:) I should just leave the glasses off to begin with! That or keep people's hands away from my face :D

The only problem is that I can't see what the instructor is doing between training. With Ikeda Sensei that's especially so...his movements are so darn quick and small!

See ya next time!
R

Ron Tisdale 04-29-2005 08:57 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Say Jun, any idea of when there might be pictures available from the seminar? Or *if*....:)

Thanks,
Ron

akiy 04-29-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
It looks like pictures from the event are now available here...

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale 04-29-2005 10:41 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hey, good shots again! How do you stay so consistant?

Thanks,
Ron

NagaBaba 04-29-2005 12:48 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hi Ron,
What is the name of this deadly technique? :D



Looks like uke hit you on your back? :p or is he going to choke you? :eek:

Ron Tisdale 04-29-2005 02:23 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
He definately hit me on my back... :)

It was training in a method of stepping in and guiding uke over as you turn. As opposed to an ukenegashi idea. I wasn't very good at it though. :) You weren't supposed to actually have to make much contact with uke. This:

http://www.boulderaikikai.org/albums...da08.thumb.jpg

is what it was supposed to look like!

RT

NagaBaba 04-30-2005 10:01 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
He definately hit me on my back... :)

It was training in a method of stepping in and guiding uke over as you turn. As opposed to an ukenegashi idea. I wasn't very good at it though. :) You weren't supposed to actually have to make much contact with uke. This:

http://www.boulderaikikai.org/albums...da08.thumb.jpg

is what it was supposed to look like!

RT

.....hmhmh.......looks like he put down other knee, non? ;)

Anyway, it is very strange idea for me to turn my back to attacker :dead: with exception, when attacker is completly locked evileyes :)
where is your martial spirit, O! Yoshinkan fighters ???? :p

bkedelen 05-01-2005 11:45 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
I think the lesson here is when you are at a seminar with two world renowned instructors, rather than attempt to do the techniques they demonstrate, you should be trying to do techniques a guy named "Szczepan" recommended on an internet forum.

NagaBaba 05-01-2005 08:13 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Benjamin,
Major congrats, you prononced my first name absolutly correctly! :D You are kind of exception in last few years. See Ron? It is possible!!! ;)

How about some nice technical discussion about this technique...or should I say, exercise? Why nage turns his back to attacker?

Don_Modesto 05-01-2005 09:54 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote:
I think the lesson here is when you are at a seminar with two world renowned instructors, rather than attempt to do the techniques they demonstrate, you should be trying to do techniques a guy named "Szczepan" recommended on an internet forum.

Yeah, Benjamin!

Ha!

Go get him!

Ron Tisdale 05-02-2005 06:53 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
If you really want a technical discussion, drop the sarcasm, and we can discuss.

RT

Ron Tisdale 05-02-2005 08:16 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hi Ben,

What did you think about that technique? I found that with proper movement and timing, uke didn't have the openings I showed in that first picture. Do you agree?

Ron

NagaBaba 05-02-2005 08:38 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
If you really want a technical discussion, drop the sarcasm, and we can discuss.

RT

Sorry Ron, didn't mean to offend you :o

Ron Tisdale 05-02-2005 09:41 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
No problem. I think the point of the exercise was to match with uke so precisely that their balance was taken and they didn't have an opportunity to do anything but take the fall. In atuallity, I think that would only work with someone whose abillity is much less than your own, or if you got really lucky. So you had people grabing the arm, locking (as you mentioned) before the turn, etc. When doing what we call 'aikinage' we usually use both arms for the throw, which gives you the abillity to lock the arm and enforce the throw. Utada Sensei specifically asked us to try the throw without that, so we could focus on the timing aspects.

And if you look at all the pictures, you might notice that I did get my feet right, at least once... :)

Best,
Ron

bkedelen 05-02-2005 09:49 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
When Utada Sensei performed the technique, there were no openings for uke to attack Utada Sensei's back. In order to learn any technique, a student must first make all of the mistakes associated with that technique, in this case exposing his/her back. I personally made every mistake displayed in the referenced picture (and many more) when we were trying this technique. If everyone has to be afraid that a picture of them trying a technique and not perfectly executing it might appear on the Internet, leading to them and their entire style being ridiculed, then they will not be able to make the necessary mistakes to really learn the technique. It appalls me that someone would post a picture of a well respected forum member's technique and disparage them.

Ron Tisdale 05-02-2005 10:26 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Hi Ben,

I don't have a problem with the picture being posted...we all have to laugh at ourselves a bit, even if its in public sometimes. :) I had a little more of a problem when he continued in that vein, even after I acknowledged my poor performance, and proceeded to insult the yoshinkan. But hey, to each his own. And I'm now in pretty good company...Szczepan also found holes in Ikeda Sensei's technique which he posted to aikido journal. Even though I don't in any way deserve to be in Ikeda Sensei's league.

Szczepan, if you want to continue to discuss the exercise, technique, whatever, please do. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto 05-02-2005 11:13 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
I think the point of the exercise was to match with uke so precisely that their balance was taken and they didn't have an opportunity to do anything but take the fall. In atuallity, I think that would only work with someone whose abillity is much less than your own, or if you got really lucky. So you had people grabing the arm, locking (as you mentioned) before the turn, etc.

Yeah. This is a tough one. It's one of those I practice with the hope of dividends in the future, but no thought of actually making it work now. I've had folks wrap themselves around me too many times on it. Can't seem to get this timing down.

I'm always nervous going into UKE's live side anyway; it takes exquisite timing.

Don_Modesto 05-02-2005 11:20 AM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote:
When Utada Sensei performed the technique, there were no openings for uke to attack Utada Sensei's back. In order to learn any technique, a student must first make all of the mistakes associated with that technique, in this case exposing his/her back.

Yes. I think mistakes are critical to learning and necessary.
Quote:

If everyone has to be afraid that a picture of them trying a technique and not perfectly executing it might appear on the Internet, leading to them and their entire style being ridiculed, then they will not be able to make the necessary mistakes to really learn the technique.
Szcp,etc. is a curmudgeon, but he often makes good points (in ways not always amusing to his victims. It's amusing, too, when a swatter appears for that gadfly.) Interestingly, he has yet to post pics of himself. Modesty, no doubt (which Thoreau took to be no more than honesty in most folks...)

A balance to our own self-consciousness is taking a hard look at the SHIHAN. No one wants to be that "presumptuous", but SHIHAN are human, too, and they screw up, too, and sometimes in international demos, too. If we see their mistakes sans rose-colored glasses, we can countenance our own better--"We do not credit clever men with their follies. What a loss of human rights!" Friedrich Nietzsche in Beyone Good and Evil, # 178

Stimulating exchange. Thanks, all.

bkedelen 05-02-2005 12:04 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
I do not think anyone, Ikeda sensei included, minds having their hip/knee/hand positions discussed on an open forum. If people here were not allowed to disagree, be controversial, and even change their minds, this forum would be sterile. Nevertheless, there is an unspoken agreement on this forum that no individual's or organization's martial spirit should be ridiculed. The very purpose of the seminar where the relevant pictures were taken was for all attendees to examine another side of Aikido, which is always an awkward procedure. Having your martial spirit challenged and forced to grow is the job of your teacher, not recalcitrant message board lurkers who obfuscate their identities, locations, and affiliations.

NagaBaba 05-02-2005 04:06 PM

Re: Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Utada Sensei specifically asked us to try the throw without that, so we could focus on the timing aspects.

that's why I asked if it was rather an exercise then a technique?
in any case, I don't do it very often. I believe it must be an element of surprise/illusion to make work timing. One day Sugano sensei asked us to do ikkyo omote few times and suddenly switch to this kind of aikinage. But attacker must be sure that nage will do ikkyo(that's illusion part - must be created by nage) and must give solid, well balanced attack, not overextending at all.
I think the spirit of this "technique" is very similar to legs takedown. Nage must create a kind of "black hole" and disappear under knees of attacker. If this is true, so nage must change his position during throw, by going back after turning and to "cut" knees of attacker with his body.

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
And if you look at all the pictures, you might notice that I did get my feet right, at least once... :)

Best,
Ron

Please don't take it personally :o :o I know you many years and respect you a lot. Because of this respect I'd like to discuss with you such difficult techniques :D


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