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-   -   what does religion say about ki? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7870)

malsmith 04-05-2005 01:59 PM

what does religion say about ki?
 
i grew up in a christian home and go to a christian high school... i do not however consider myself to be/practice any religion.

but i was just thinking that ki is kind of a complicated subject and i was also thinking that most christians would get upset with people if they said that ki was real. are there any christians out there that could share their veiws???

if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??

kironin 04-05-2005 03:29 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Mal Smith wrote:
if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??

traditional definitions of ki include a belief that it exists in everything both in animate and inanimate objects.

ki is not equivalent to "life force" or "vital energy" etc.

a rock has ki.

tedehara 04-05-2005 03:43 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Mal Smith wrote:
i grew up in a christian home and go to a christian high school... i do not however consider myself to be/practice any religion.

but i was just thinking that ki is kind of a complicated subject and i was also thinking that most christians would get upset with people if they said that ki was real. are there any christians out there that could share their veiws???

if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??

The concepts of ki and reincarnation are independent of each other. If a person believes in ki, it does not mean they also believe in reincarnation or vice versa.

I do know of people who practice ki development and are Christians. They believe that their ki practice helps their Christianity. Of course that probably depends more on what style of "Christianity" and "Aikido" you practice.

ChristianBoddum 04-05-2005 03:56 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
I donīt associate Ki with anything spiritual - yet,
the revelations Oīsensei had of Aiki as a divine martial path is fascinating,
as for me I keep my focus on the cross , as I believe all things will be revealed by Christ.

malsmith 04-05-2005 04:08 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
O' Sensei's "divine martial path" is really fascinating, i just dont think i fully understand it :( :confused:

Aardvark 04-05-2005 07:47 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
There are many paths up Mount Fuji, but only one summit.

It can be difficult to tell a person about the other routes, particularly if they have found the only track. But if the paths all end in the same place, perhaps we can learn from all of them?

Besides, if ki is "real", it must have been a part of creation, no?

But then again, most of my family would probably disagree with that, so I guess I'll either meet them somewhere along the way, or burn for a very long time...

Chris Li 04-05-2005 07:52 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Aaron Pym wrote:
There are many paths up Mount Fuji, but only one summit.

It can be difficult to tell a person about the other routes, particularly if they have found the only track. But if the paths all end in the same place, perhaps we can learn from all of them?

Assuming of course, that they all end in the same place, which is where a lot of problems arise.

Quote:

Aaron Pym wrote:
Besides, if ki is "real", it must have been a part of creation, no?

So is AIDS...

Best,

Chris

Mark Balogh 04-06-2005 06:35 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Apparently the thing that martial artists have in common with monks etc is their continued ki/chi development and therefore high levels of the good stuff. This is apparently why spirtual experiences happen to many martial artists. :)

Apparently. ;)

Jake Karlins 04-06-2005 08:15 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
"ki is not equivalent to "life force" or "vital energy" etc.

a rock has ki."

I've read descriptions of chi (Chinese for ki) that talk about the chi of objects. If you read about Feng Shui they talk about this. Who'd've guessed that you'd read about decorating in an Aikido forum? :D
....
I'm confusing myself trying to elaborate on this. Could be I'm WAY off (esp. as far as animate objects are concerned). Kironin- if you don't mind, could you elaborate? If ki is not vital energy, what is it (what kind of energy or thing)?

Personally, I think it's really key ;) to base talk about ki on actual experience. I don't know about reincarnation, but I do know that I feel great after most Aikido classes, and that I feel interesting things when I work with really good Aikidoka- that's ki (at least in part). You can believe in ki, but then what's that based on? Like people have said ki can be part of a spiritual view, but it doesn't have to be. Right now, it seems like ki must be part of the big picture, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions- I'm not sure what part. At the same time, ki is very natural/normal. I tell this to skeptical friends sometimes. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, famous Chinese martial artist, writes about laughter as expelling energy- this makes sense, right? Think about how it feels to hold yourself back from laughing, that rush of energy in your torso. I guess my long-winded point is that ki/chi/whatever is a natural everyday thing, whether it fits into a spiritual/religious framework or not.

Greg Jennings 04-06-2005 08:37 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
You know, I have to go fishing about once a year to remember why I, in general, hate it so much. Ditto reading threads on ki. I guess I'm good for another year.

Best,

Dazzler 04-06-2005 09:03 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
You know, I have to go fishing about once a year to remember why I, in general, hate it so much. Ditto reading threads on ki. I guess I'm good for another year.

Best,

Presumably that fishing trip wont be improved by having a priest or mullah with you?

Its an open forum so carry on guys....I'm off for a beer with Greg to discuss Bow locks. ;)

D

Kevin Leavitt 04-06-2005 01:45 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
I have been wondering since yesterday what KI has to say about religion?

thisisnotreal 04-06-2005 10:01 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
religion is the pursuit of: __
ki is the pursuit of: ___

kironin 04-07-2005 01:03 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Jake Karlins wrote:
to base talk about ki on actual experience.


no, I don't care to elaborate. ;)

actually kinesthetic experience is all that really matters.

compared to that talk based on actual experience is not even worth much, attempts to talk about Ki become metaphysical discussions about the nature of reality from the view of fundamentally nonverbal experiences.
:crazy:

Joe Bowen 04-07-2005 02:17 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane

Jake Karlins 04-07-2005 09:09 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
I don't know, I don't want to sound ornery, but, ah... This is obviously a thread about ki, so if you're not interested in talking about ki, there are other threads... And if ki is a "fundamentally nonverbal experience," isn't everything? Words describe what we experience- experience is there without words, right? Whether I think "I am typing right now" as I type, or not, I'm still doing the same thing. everything is nonverbal at one level, but why we're "here"/posting is to be verbal. just talking about ikkyo won't in itself make your ikkyo better, but it might give you some insight that'll improve your training. I think this applies to ki, too. But that's just me, maybe for lots of others, talking about ki doesn't serve any purpose.
I think all that ki/energy stuff is really cool and interesting, and is probably the main reason I got into martial arts in the first place. There are lots of other reasons I've continued, but it remains fascinating to me.
Here's the thing- the point I was trying to make, and maybe this didn't come out clearly, is that talk about energy DOESN'T have to be "metaphysical", or religious, etc. Ki can often seem magical when a really good martial artist or healer uses it well, but I think this is just because most people (or maybe just most Westerners) aren't aware of ki in everyday life. It's there all the time, and it's a natural part of life (otherwise what is it? not real? some magic power that only works on the mat?). As far as its religious nature goes, I think most really religious people will say that every part of their life is religious- not just being in church, temple, whatever, but talking to neighbors, watering plants, and so forth. As ki is just another part of life, how ki fits into religion depends on whether you are religious, or how religious you are. Once you can feel ki to some degree, you know it's real (as real anything else you experience consistently). From there, it's up to a person to fit it into their beliefs, whether totally atheist/scientific, or devoutly religious.

Sonja2012 04-07-2005 09:21 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Everybody who thinks that ki is only metaphysical/spiritual/religious should go and get the book "A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Bryson. An exclusively scientific book which very soon makes it *very* clear that the deeper scientists get in their understanding of quantum physics, astronomy, chemistry and biology, the closer they get to the unknown, i.e. energy, life and why it exists, etc. There simply is no line between science and philosophy, the "real world" and the "hidden world", including nonverbal experineces, energy, etc.

Kevin Leavitt 04-07-2005 12:26 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
A good movie on the subject I just watched is What the Bleep Do We Know!?. If you have a hard time reading heavy stuff, this movie is at least entertaining and thought provoking. It made my wife and I think about a lot of things. Very relevant to aikido and self improvement. To me it is explains the essence of KI.

kironin 04-08-2005 03:09 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Quote:

Jake Karlins wrote:
I don't know, I don't want to sound ornery, but, ah... This is obviously a thread about ki, so if you're not interested in talking about ki, there are other threads...

That would be a first for the Ki Society wouldn't it. :D


unless you are syncretist, the original question begs another question: Which religion ?

Kevin Leavitt 04-08-2005 03:30 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Which Religion? Good question.

I was actually serious in my other post wondering about what KI had to say about religion.

Since KI theoretically permeates everything and operates without concern for religion, then it really wouldn't matter what religion said about KI since it could have no influence over it. It would be more important IMHO what KI thought about religion since it has an influence on religion.

IMHO all religions recognize KI and religion I suppose is an interpretation of the signifance of KI and how it influences and interacts with us. Bottom line, KI means alot of different things to people depending upon their paradigm or dogma.

What is important is that we recognize that we are all connected by a common thread actions or lack of action influence others. Until we truly understand and internalize this we will never have peace.

xuzen 04-09-2005 01:23 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Re: what does religion say about ki?

Nothing.

Boon.

bogglefreak20 04-11-2005 12:56 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
I tend to think about KI as the onmipressence of God. But I prefer to explore and extend KI rather than to think about it.

AaronFrancher 04-12-2005 09:12 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
I've noticed that many religions mention 'ki' without really realizing the connection. For example, blessings are possibly a form of universal ki. I'd like to list others...but i can't think of anything else at the moment. However, there are more.

Aiki.Ronin 04-14-2005 11:49 AM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
Good luck to any of you that try to convince religious people that Ki is applicable and part of life/religion! Generally when (here in the Deep South) I get into conversations about religious similarities the responses are less than openminded. Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell", are typically the norm.

What about the idea of Ki as the "energy of intent"?

Could a christian struggling with the 'rightness or wrongness' of believing in ki be solved by remembering that "god is in all things"?
Just my 2 cents.

charron 04-14-2005 04:50 PM

Re: what does religion say about ki?
 
In one of the above posts - someone said something to the effect - that l a lot of martial artist achieve enlightenment. That's news to me. I don't believe that martial practice by itself is enough to reach enlightment. From what I've read, is that for most people who have reached enlightment, they basically all shared one commonly known practice. Not necessaritly martial practice. But all appear to have practiced a lot of 'meditation'. That to me is the real key to enlightment, not the martial practice. i don't believe that just a quick meditation at the beginning and end of practice are sufficient to achieve enlightment. But maybe continued practice of meditation, will.


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