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Ron Tisdale 03-30-2005 10:13 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
Quote:

Kisshomaru Ueshiba had a "volunteer" at a demonstration in Hawaii whom he asked to "throw a punch". The volunteer was a trained martial artist and threw a series of punches far too rapid and erratic for Ueshiba to grasp or anything so he finally waved the guy away and asked for another volunteer.
Hi Mike,

I've seen you tell this story before, and I still have the same problems with it, to wit;

1) *A* punch was asked for not a *series* of punches

2) this was a demonstration, with a specific teaching goal in mind...multiple strikes probably didn't help to illustrate the principle at hand

3) this was NOT a challenge...it was a demonstration...you are inferring something completely out of context

I find the use of this example out of context to be somewhat disengenuous. I have it on good info that while the 2nd Doshu may not have been the best in the world, in an art passed down within a family, that is not unusual. And more importantly, I have it on very good information that the 2nd Doshu was more than quite capable. Despite what an unknown source might say about his experience in trying to 'up the anti' at a public demonstration.

Ron (rudeness has its own rewards...I know instructors that would clean someone's clock for that kind of rude behavior)

Mike Sigman 03-30-2005 10:37 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ron (rudeness has its own rewards...I know instructors that would clean someone's clock for that kind of rude behavior)

I don't want to get off the point by discussing rudeness, Ron. I thought it was rude, too. The point is that too many people in Aikido are used to linear, stylized, and predictable attacks. I watched a video the other day of someone who has been recommended as "very good" by some people on this list. He looked "very good" to me, also, but I could only judge him from an Aikido perspective. He was polished and very fast and very effective.... but he also has trained himself against exactly those linear, non-feinting, cooperative attacks which he handled. I don't have a clue how he'd do in a real fight against an equally large, strong, and experienced fighter from another system. I suspect he'd be very uncomfortable without the standard attacks, though.... and that was the point.

And BTW, if by not repeating back the standard dogma within Aikido about Aikido I'm breaking taboos, as seems to be the case with a few people, please bear in mind that I'm used to clinical discussions about martial arts that don't involve dogma...I'm not trying to offend or disparage by not repeating the legends suitably. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale 03-30-2005 10:54 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
:) Not asking for legends...just noting an inconsistancy in the logic between the story at hand, and what *it seems* we should take away from it.

I myself would hesitate to say what attacks someone is familiar with. For instance, a shotokan BB who is a pretty darn good fighter once made the decision to try my own teacher in this fashion...he regretted the decision, and decided not to try it again. :) He's now 3rd Dan in aikido. Worked out well all around...because the teacher in question has a big heart, and didn't put him in the hospital. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that K. Ueshiba also had a big heart... :)

Ron

Mike Sigman 03-30-2005 10:56 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
I've seen you tell this story before, and I still have the same problems with it, to wit;

1) *A* punch was asked for not a *series* of punches

Let me clarify "series", Ron. A punch was asked for. Tom punched and withdrew so fast that K.U. couldn't grab it. He threw another; same outcome. He threw a 3rd one; same outcome. That's the "series".

Mike

Mike Sigman 03-30-2005 11:00 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
:) Not asking for legends...just noting an inconsistancy in the logic between the story at hand, and what *it seems* we should take away from it.

I already posted it.... your interpretation of "series" missed the point. K.U. was used to punches of a different sort.
Quote:

I myself would hesitate to say what attacks someone is familiar with. For instance, a shotokan BB who is a pretty darn good fighter once made the decision to try my own teacher in this fashion...he regretted the decision, and decided not to try it again. :) He's now 3rd Dan in aikido. Worked out well all around...because the teacher in question has a big heart, and didn't put him in the hospital. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that K. Ueshiba also had a big heart... :)
Groan. Not *another* "blackbelt in karate get creamed" story. :) I've got plenty of them. So does everyone else. Why do we hear so many "blackbelt in karate" stories??? I think it's stylic discrimination! ;)

Mike

Ron Tisdale 03-30-2005 11:05 AM

Re: Equitable?
 
:) You skipped the important part..." a pretty darn good fighter".

We can pick at each other all day over this one...my point being that the story you gave doesn't quite fit the logic in the conversation.

Ron (no biggie)

Oh and its no different from the 'experienced martial artist shows up X stories...is it??

RT

rob_liberti 03-30-2005 12:14 PM

Re: Punches
 
When you are holding a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Mike Sigman 03-30-2005 03:29 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote:
When you are holding a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

When you are a nail, you think everyone is trying to hammer you. Oops... that belonged on the "Equality" thread. ;)

Mike

Mike Sigman 03-30-2005 03:31 PM

Re: Punches
 
As long as we've got this neat thread courtesy of Jun, maybe we should talk about atemi. I've been out of it too long.... what's a list of accepted "hits" that are considered atemi?

Mike

Chris Birke 03-30-2005 08:37 PM

Re: Punches
 
I think one of Aikido's greatest stregnths is how it illustrates atemi and kuzushi.

I see systema, and I detect a lot of bullshit - but I also see the same great illustration of kuzushi and atemi. I havn't gotten the chance to expirence it first hand though, and I've only seen it in training context, never in any sort of fight (which makes it pretty difficult for me to judge).

There is no particular strike (though some are more widely applicable than others) ; instead it is the contexts that are important.

What I find most often defines it is striking when you know what the other person is thinking, and striking in such a way as their thoughts dictate.

So, with regard to the story, maybe Osensi just thought the other guy was an asshole and moved along because he wouldn't have been a good illustration?

My expirence is pretty limited in the long run though. =/

NagaBaba 03-30-2005 09:17 PM

Re: Punches
 
A *series* of punches from experienced fighter is a very difficult to deal with. One need a special training for this.

creinig 03-31-2005 12:21 AM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
As long as we've got this neat thread courtesy of Jun, maybe we should talk about atemi. I've been out of it too long.... what's a list of accepted "hits" that are considered atemi?

see "Total Aikido", p. 24 ;)

Mike Sigman 03-31-2005 06:17 AM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Christian Reiniger wrote:
see "Total Aikido", p. 24 ;)

I like that description, Christian. It mentions focused power used with any part of the body. My specialty. :^) But worse than they imagine, I think. I was afraid to go to some dojo sometime and have them cry "foul" about the things I do for atemi.

Thanks.

Mike

SeiserL 03-31-2005 07:59 AM

Re: Punches
 
IMHO, one of the major criticisms of Aikido is its inability to utilize and train with and against effective and efficient strikes/punches/atemi.

Yet, if one pays attention to the angle of attack instead of the type of attack, it is easier to make an application.

On a few occasions, we have trained off a flow or series of strikes, by blending/blocking/evading a few strikes and then taking one into the technique. Worked well.

Jory Boling 03-31-2005 09:35 AM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
I like that description, Christian. It mentions focused power used with any part of the body. My specialty. :^) But worse than they imagine, I think. I was afraid to go to some dojo sometime and have them cry "foul" about the things I do for atemi.

Thanks.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I don't have that book and am relatively new to aikido. Can you elaborate about things you do for atemi? like a strike witih a shoulder or a head butt?

thanks
Jory

Mike Sigman 03-31-2005 10:02 AM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Jory Boling wrote:
Hi Mike,
I don't have that book and am relatively new to aikido. Can you elaborate about things you do for atemi? like a strike witih a shoulder or a head butt?

It's tricky in Aikido (and other martial arts, often) about "what is allowed", even though common sense would tell you that you need to learn to respond to all things if you're going to fight. Notice that there are a number of set "attacks", like tsuki, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, etc. The attack is called for and expected. There is a set way to respond in order to "do the technique correctly" in most dojo's. So if you do something outside of those bounds, many people will take umbrage.... i.e., whatever the lip-service may be, you're really not "allowed" or encouraged to do actions which don't conform to the expected protocols. On the whole, this is good for training, but there needs to be (if Aikido is going to ever be used as an effective martial art) some way to practice a wider variety of techniques, and this includes various atemi's.

My general approach to atemi is that "the body is your hand". You should be able to strike extremely hard with your hand, elbow, shoulder, back, chest, head, hip, knee, foot, etc., using the same kokyu power that is in all the throws (albeit I use an additive component to increase that power and shorten the impact time). If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc. ;) "Harmony" is the pigeon-Japanese word for "do it our way", all too often.

FWIW

Mike

Ron Tisdale 03-31-2005 10:28 AM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door
Actually, only if you did it at an inappropriate time. I've been in quite a few dojo that allow atemi, from no contact to fairly rigorous contact as long as its controlled enough to prevent large amounts of broken uke.

Quote:

with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc.
Aikido and Dance are not two words I have heard together in any of the dojo (yosh and otherwise) that I regularly visit...

Quote:

"Harmony" is the pigeon-Japanese word for "do it our way", all too often
I think you meant 'pidgen'... :) And all too often, you're correct...

Ron

Adam Alexander 03-31-2005 12:38 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Aikido and Dance are not two words I have heard together in any of the dojo (yosh and otherwise) that I regularly visit...

Maybe try Shioda's books.

Ron Tisdale 03-31-2005 12:39 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Maybe try Shioda's books.
:) Books are not dojo...big difference...

RT

Adam Alexander 03-31-2005 12:54 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
:) Books are not dojo...big difference...

RT

No doubt, no doubt. However, I figured Shioda's opinion was a pretty solid reference.

Bodhi 03-31-2005 01:12 PM

Re: Punches
 
It's tricky in Aikido (and other martial arts, often) about "what is allowed", even though common sense would tell you that you need to learn to respond to all things if you're going to fight. Notice that there are a number of set "attacks", like tsuki, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, etc. The attack is called for and expected. There is a set way to respond in order to "do the technique correctly" in most dojo's

Mike,
this is exactly why Aikido as well as other traditional training systems will continue to have trouble with todays real fighters as well as with a uncooperative attacker or attackers armed or unarmed.
Also, if they do practice striking it is usually done in a half hearted prearranged telegraphed mannor, everything is expected or done with their idea of what real intensity is. Have them try adding in broken rhythm, half beats, 4-5 move hand/foot combinations, knees, elbows, headbutts, and eyegoudges. Do that exact same thing with a knife or stick added in, using everything described above including grappling and ground work with and without a blade, then pay attention to how an aikido man or woman will deal with it. When you put that aliveness into your training you will always get different results than when your training cooperatively. Havent you ever wondered why all the real fights you see involving martial artists and anyone else dont look very appealing to the eye? Its because the techniques done under pressure in a high intensity uncooperative situation are different than what your used to, your takin out of your confort zone because that is not how you have trained In a real world violent encounter you will not be able to rely on fine motor skills, you will not be able to catch punches unless you just get lucky, and you will not be able to rely on a joint lock or a throw! So you cut out all the crap, rely on gross motor skills, and train for the worst scenerios. Most martial artists dont do that, some dont even want to do that, its a personal choice. But i promise you from years of experience in real life situations, you had better train with the worst case scenerios in mind because how you train is whats going to dictate what you do for real. I recently had a conversation with a LEO who is an aikido teacher and trains LEO and military agencies. He said that the main reason that some of his aikido tecniques worked was because the person being arrested was only half heartedly resisting him. He told me that in the cases where the person being arrested was actually trying to hurt him, his partner, or someone else, he had to esculate the force continum. Because someone that is truly resisting just wont comply with a joint lock or throw much less when you try to catch their hand out of the air. When you add in adrenaline, determination, pain tolerance etc, the scenerio changes. Thats why you must train how your going to fight, with the worst case scenerio in mind! That can be anything your imagination can dream up, i usually train with the mindset that the attacker is bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, on meth, and knows how to fight. I also imagine there may be more than 1, armed and unarmed in a variety of enviroments. We used to train where we would be doing a ground fighting exercize in class, maybe we were using a knife, maybe not, but at any moment someone else in class could come over at anytime they wanted and jump in on us, attacking whomever they wanted, with or without a blade or stick. When you add exercizes like that, it really changes your mindset about training Try this exercize sometime, run, swim, jump rope, hit a heavybag, do windsprints or ANY cardio exercize for 3 minutes as hard and as fast as you are able, then IMMEDIATLEY have your training partner attack you using whatever means they wish (stick, knife, emptyhand etc) Make sure nothing is prearranged, or telegraphed, have them use combinations, broken rhythm, half beats, stop hits etc. Do this with full intensity, just freakin attack you all out like your the only thing standing between them and their drowning child. Then you may begin to see if your tecniques even come close to maybe working under pressure. I promise you you wont be able to catch that punch and your tecniques wont look as smooth and pretty as they do in your dojo. Sometimes i think people are so amazed with the legends of what the old masters could do that they miss their own truth. A good martial artist once coined it "the classical mess" and said its like swimming on dry land! You will never be able to experience the waters until you get your feet wet, just as someone who has never lived through a violent encounter has no clue about what it takes to survive one.
Forget what may or may not have been long ago, and start training with realism, only then will you get to whats at the heart of your training, or why you even train at all

Ron Tisdale 03-31-2005 01:22 PM

Re: Punches
 
Reference for what?

Quote:

If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc.
Certainly not that...Shioda's books are a much better reference for atemi. I don't think you and Mike are reffering to the same thing.

Speaking of atemi...what about atemi in public demonstrations? From uke or shite/nage? Mike does have a point I suppose in terms of the standardized attacks we see in demonstrations. I think its part of the public image of the art (good or bad is up to the individual I suppose). Aikido is usually presented in a very clean, smooth fashion. A lot of times in freestyle demos you don't see shite using atemi to any large extent. But even an aikidoka of Tohei's status didn't look as good when faced with someone intent on *not* giving the standard attacks. In that particular situation, Tohei was supposedly instructed not to hurt the challenger, so it would seem atemi would be out.

Personally, I think most people in aikido for any substantial period of time are aware that what you see in a demo is not 'real world'...but are we clear enough about that? And what would aikdio demos look like with more use of atemi by shite?

Ellis's statement on atemi = entering on another recent thread might be of interest here...

Ron

Mike Sigman 03-31-2005 01:34 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Jason Potenza wrote:
this is exactly why Aikido as well as other traditional training systems will continue to have trouble with todays real fighters as well as with a uncooperative attacker or attackers armed or unarmed. [[snipsky]]

Of course you're mostly right, Jason, and I agree. However, despite the unreality of some classical training systems they will sometimes add some arrows to your quiver that are pretty good. What you said about real fighting is particularly true and I often think that most people who "got in a fight at the bar" don't understand is that usually "the reason you did OK was because he was just as inept as you were". Even in a lot of dojo's, Aikido and otherwise, the reason someone gets known as a "good fighter" is because he's fighting other people with moderate skill level.

I happen to like the idea of Aikido for the same reason I enjoy looking into yiquan, Taiji, Bagua, etc.... the body mechanics and the health benefits. I've already got a lot of fights behind me and I'm interested in the physical training, not the self-defense aspects anymore. However, I know fighting fairly well when I see it, as do other people who have spent a lot of time doing it, and it blows my mind to see some people think that cooperative drills would lead to real fighting skills without having to do anything else.

But hey... don't start confusing some of these discussions with facts, Jason.... it doesn't endear you to people if you tell them the truth is not what they've come to believe. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman 03-31-2005 01:54 PM

Re: Punches
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Personally, I think most people in aikido for any substantial period of time are aware that what you see in a demo is not 'real world'...but are we clear enough about that? And what would aikdio demos look like with more use of atemi by shite?

Ron, there are tons of dojo's with people who don't have a clue what the "real world" is or what a "real fight" is.... and they simply don't want to know. Aikido is a haven where they don't have to face the real world, in a lot of cases. They consider demo's to BE the real world.

What I was asking was "what are the acceptable 'atemi's' that I can use in say an average dojo nowadays without having to face the ire anc conform-pressure that is so easily generated when you don't "harmonize" in accordance with the accepted protocols? Punch? Side chop? Elbow? Slap? What? In a lot of dojo's I've been in, the only really accepted atemi was a stylized fake fist-punch during irimi on a few select techniques and I was wondering what else was out there.

Regards,

Mike

Bodhi 03-31-2005 02:08 PM

Re: Punches
 
despite the unreality of some classical training systems they will sometimes add some arrows to your quiver that are pretty good

Very true, whatever has been known to work over and over against a highly motivated resisting attacker should be used.

Even in a lot of dojo's, Aikido and otherwise, the reason someone gets known as a "good fighter" is because he's fighting other people with moderate skill level.

There again, true, u must train with progressive resistance against all types of fighters, weights, sizes, shapes, different systems etc.

I happen to like the idea of Aikido for the same reason I enjoy looking into yiquan, Taiji, Bagua, etc.... the body mechanics and the health benefits. I've already got a lot of fights behind me and I'm interested in the physical training,

Same here, i think certain ideas definatley supplement your training

But hey... don't start confusing some of these discussions with facts, Jason.... it doesn't endear you to people if you tell them the truth is not what they've come to believe.

Boy dont i know it!

I think we should all have a gathering once a year somewhere in the middle of the country. We could all meet eachother, make some new friends, exchange ideas and concepts, and test some theory under different conditions. We could try and get the highest ranking aikidoka to come as well as beginners I know plenty of people from different systems, not to mention law enforcement,military, and just plain old tough street fighters that would be more than willing to help us all in our search for truth regarding what really works in the arts. It would be fun, we could sit around the campfire, cookout, talk, sing songs. What do you all think? Mike i have some people in Durango i know, im in Arizona but ill pprobly be up there sometime this summer, we should definatley hook up and train.


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