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-   -   Nice Video... (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7478)

Roy Dean 02-02-2005 02:56 PM

Nice Video...
 
Recently posted on the Underground forum of MMA.TV was this link to a nice aikido highlight reel:

http://www.ryokukai.com/video/brian.mpg

Thought it was worth sharing, if you haven't seen it already.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

ChristianBoddum 02-02-2005 03:03 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Very,very nice - I was actually touched !

Chr.B.

aikidoc 02-02-2005 03:18 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Who is the instructor and school?

Aristeia 02-02-2005 04:45 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Interesting to see a shoot with sprawl defence (of sorts) tucked in there.

NagaBaba 02-02-2005 08:36 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word -- run away, run away!!!!

xuzen 02-02-2005 09:48 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word -- run away, run away!!!!

Dear Mr. Janczuk,

Having said the above, I wonder if you would be so kind to show us what you define as very good technique where all uke are not jumping and throwing themselves, where locks are correctly applied and are efficient and lastly where weapon practice is not directly from gameboy. A video of how you or your dojo buddies practice would be wonderful my ol' chap.

IMO, I think the dojo is doing the Aikikai/Hombu syllabus. For a normal dojo practice (non-embu) techniques, they seem pretty good.

Boon.

aikidoc 02-02-2005 09:56 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Is this Toribio Sensei? If so, Szczepan is out of line. Toribio Sensei has performed at the Aiki-Expo and I believe is a 5th dan aikikai. He also, if I recall, studies Daito-ryu. I have participated in a seminar training with the Zen Mountain retreat in California. He is very good and his ukemi is outstanding.

The video quality isn't great though.

Aristeia 02-02-2005 10:05 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word -- run away, run away!!!!

Thank's for your comments. Looking forward to seeing your video....

PeterR 02-02-2005 10:08 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

John Riggs wrote:
Is this Toribio Sensei? If so, Szczepan is out of line. Toribio Sensei has performed at the Aiki-Expo and I believe is a 5th dan aikikai. He also, if I recall, studies Daito-ryu. I have participated in a seminar training with the Zen Mountain retreat in California. He is very good and his ukemi is outstanding.

The video quality isn't great though.

Why is he out of line.

Aiki-Expo is not a mark of quality and neither is a 5th Dan nor the study of Daito-ryu.

It was an ok dojo advertisment demo - except for the weapons work (what was that?).

Michael Young 02-02-2005 10:34 PM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Just an observation...last time someone posted a video demo of Aikido on the Aikiweb, a very similar type of thread developed in which some people started harshly criticizing the technique shown and the people performing in it. The thread devolved into a tirade of those people who believed the Aikido wasn't up to their own (nebulous) standards and those defending the people on the video. As was observed then...you can't judge someone's Aikido quality from a couple of minutes of video. What is the point of making negative comments about what someone out there is doing. If you really want to make some constructive comments, then do so...but simply saying that everything someone is doing is wrong without actually experiencing them personally, is nothing but an indication of your own shortcomings...is there some reason someone should feel it necessary to berate what another is doing? does this make you feel better about what you yourself are doing or somehow validate what you feel is the "correct" or superior way of doing things by saying another is "incorrect" or "inferior"? What you say about someone else often times says more about yourself.

But then again I could be wrong ;)

Mike

Bradence 02-03-2005 12:12 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
I think that, regardless of how "good" the aikido in the video may be, it is still very helpful to experience what others in the art are doing. I certainly can't judge the effectiveness of the techniques, but I find it very useful to see what others are doing so that I can make comparisons with what I'm learning. The judgement of "good" or "bad" and even "ass-kickingly street effective" is for each person to make on their own. Then after you've been exposed to more learning you can go back and smile at how foolish you were, and then do so again and again; that is the nature of learning afterall. Thank you very much for the link.

Brad

senshincenter 02-03-2005 12:55 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Peter wrote: "Aiki-Expo is not a mark of quality and neither is a 5th Dan nor the study of Daito-ryu."

An excellent point. It's amazing how much we all have to hear it (again). So thanks for saying it.

dmv

Dazzler 02-03-2005 05:59 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Nice vid.

If I could suggest some critique...

Kotagaeshi...having broken ukes posture why give it back to him? look..uke is bent over then he is standing straight again.

Irimi nage...check out http://www.kyushinkan.com/ ...Its been posted under Peter Browns introduction and shows how this version of irimi nage can be countered with sutemi waza. Further to this...Ukes striking hand remains free - If it contains a knife then it can simply be withdrawn to rip ukes guts out. Finally the irimi nage seems to function solely by applying a forearm smash to ukes neck.

Generally very effective until you meet the no necked monster that every dojo has.

Far better to break ukes balance from the rear. Otherwise for me it is force against force, yang against yang...and not particularly aikido.

Ushiro Waza. No. I can say nothing more that that. Can anyone believe it is good martial arts practice to present your rear to an uke in the hope that he takes your wrist.

I did think the sentiments expressed were very valid and in his way the instructor presented a good selection of aiki . Obviously everyone here practices differently and usually they have a reason for the way they do things. So I don't want to be overly critical.

Hopefully my comments are food for thought...if there are responses then I will learn from them.

Regards

D

aikidoc 02-03-2005 06:48 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Without specifics stating very poor technique is meaningless. Also, I cannot comment on the weapons-they were different.

Toribio sensei is an accomplished martial artist and although the Aiki-Expo may not be a benchmark I have seen him personally and he is a very good teacher. It was one exposure. Also, some styles of aikido do not always operate the same way. The balance criticisms although valid may be due to stylistic differences. Even though balance may be restored momentarily or appear so the energy flow may make it a difficult for the uke to counter.

rob_liberti 02-03-2005 06:49 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Michael Young wrote:
The thread devolved into a tirade of those people who believed the Aikido wasn't up to their own (nebulous) standards and those defending the people on the video. As was observed then...you can't judge someone's Aikido quality from a couple of minutes of video.

There must be some standards we can all agree on. I know of a 5th dan (at the time) who was demonstrating shihonage in the Mass area. He called up a 4th kyu who had every intention of doing his best job to take ukemi. The godan basically tried to crank his uke over and when he got way less resistance than he must have been expecting, he actually lost his own balance and fell while trying to demonstrate the waza. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was a sub-par display of godan aikido. (If this means that I'm not spiritually evolved for this judgment then so be it. I kind of feel like if I pay for an aikido seminar, the person should be qualified. If I get a pizza that tastes terrible, I should get to complain about that too, even if I don't know how to make pizzas myself!)

I've had shihan totally fail to do basic waza on me (like tenkan, sankyo, and katadori nikyo), That is just absurd to me as my sempai have NO trouble performing these techniques on me. My feeling is that if your basic waza is sub-par then DECLINE invitations to teach seminars so you have enough time to work on your own basics before going out and teaching nonsense to people!

I know people will want to say, sub-par to what standards, or something like that; so, can we come up with some at least some _less nebulous_ standards? I think we could all agree that the aikido sensei should be able to demonstrate basic waza without falling down especially when working out with willing ukes. I'd say we generally don't expect any jumping kicks in normal aikido practice. Maybe we can take the idea further and say we can expect the person doing aikido to behave in a way that does the minimal damage to the attacker? Any other standards we can agree on?

As far as this specific video is concerned, it is obviously meant to advertise aikido and for that I liked liked it just fine - especially the sprawl (that was great!). In that guy's defence, it's not always so easy to perform stellar technique on white belt ukes because they tend to bail out a bit early, or resist a bit too much in a way that is not really ideal for uke or nage. Black belts do the same, just *generally* not as much.

Rob

akiy 02-03-2005 09:01 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
To jump in here, I do not think the video is Julio Toribio sensei. Yes, I've trained with him, too...

-- Jun

Bronson 02-03-2005 09:18 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
Can anyone believe it is good martial arts practice to present your rear to an uke in the hope that he takes your wrist.

Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
Obviously everyone here practices differently and usually they have a reason for the way they do things.

As a counterpoint to the first statement and reinforcement of the second: In Seidokan our ushiro attacks come from behind. The thinking is that Uke approached you from behind so you didn't have the opportunity to move to a better position ie. facing uke.

We have a separate type of attack called Ushiromawari+(attack) that denotes Uke coming from the front or side and attempting to get around to your back.

Aren't stylistic differences grand :D

Bronson

John Boswell 02-03-2005 09:21 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
As far as the video goes, it was good and bad in many respects:

Good:
Film quality was fair and showed everything well.
Good direction as far as camara angles, the flow of one sequence to the next.
Captured the audiences attention and maintained it. (imho)
Had a good variety of ranks and skills to use (hand and weapons techniques)

Bad:
Much of the ukemi was poor. At one point I saw someone do a full flip and land on his hands and knees.
Harsh technique. Iriminage that lifted people up and turned them upside down? I'd like to see the landing on that one.
Over dramatized: I think much of what was demonstrated was for effect more than for instruction or proper technique.
Word usage wasn't met well with the video at one point. "Aikido is Love." and then it move on to uke's being slammed around, again more for effect, imo. Needed to better explain where the "love" was/is.

It was good and it was bad. I like the fact that it was done and people are working to get Aikido more widely known in the world. I did a search for M.A.T.E. productions but could find nothing on them. (yet) There was an american flag on the wall in the background, so we can assume this to be an american instructor and dojo, but I wouldn't dare try to name the instructor. I don't think anyone else has said definitivly, "That is Sensei Soandso", so no disrespect should be intended toward any specific person, also imho.

Overall: take from it what you will and leave the rest. Everyone will react differently and we can't take that personally.

Have a good day! :)

kironin 02-03-2005 09:22 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:
To jump in here, I do not think the video is Julio Toribio sensei. Yes, I've trained with him, too...
-- Jun

I was going to say also that it is not Julio Toribio Sensei. I can't remember if I trained with him, but I have certainly talked to him face to face and watched his demos at the Aiki-Expo. That's not him in the video.

Regardless of what you think the quality of the aikido is in the video, I think it's a smart idea to have video like that for marketing.

I am more interested in learning where this organization comes from ?
http://www.ryokukai.com/
the teacher appears to be a Karateka pushing Ki healing for cancer.
there is no information on Aikido lineage or who actually is the aikido teacher(s) that I could find on the website.

to quote from website
"1973 : At age 30, he founded International Ryokukai Karatedo , a new karate style based on the best of what he had discovered through his study of a variety of karate styles, plus Aikido and Iaido.
...
1984 : Niikura came to the USA and in the process moved the home dojo of international Ryokukai to Sterling Heights Michigan."


Anybody know anything about Katsumi Niikura ?

Michael Young 02-03-2005 09:29 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

There must be some standards we can all agree on. I know of a 5th dan (at the time) who was demonstrating shihonage in the Mass area. He called up a 4th kyu who had every intention of doing his best job to take ukemi. The godan basically tried to crank his uke over and when he got way less resistance than he must have been expecting, he actually lost his own balance and fell while trying to demonstrate the waza. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was a sub-par display of godan aikido. (If this means that I'm not spiritually evolved for this judgment then so be it. I kind of feel like if I pay for an aikido seminar, the person should be qualified. If I get a pizza that tastes terrible, I should get to complain about that too, even if I don't know how to make pizzas myself!)
In general, I agree with you, I think there should be some universal standards, but judging by the things I've seen both in my travels and the discussions I've read on these and other threads, there are many who would disagree what those standards should be. I also agree about getting bad pizza, but its hard for me to judge how a pizza tastes by watching someone else eat it :confused: .

My point was not that we shouldn't discuss the merits of something we see, but just jumping to generalized, harsh, high-handed criticisms about someone's ability to teach and perform Aikido isn't the way to go about it, and says more about the person making the comments than about those being commented upon. Yes, if I see some ridiculous demonstration of people holding their hands out and making people fall ten feet across the room from them, or a guy standing in bikini briefs with blood on his chest and arms raised above his head in victory after displaying his "Aikido" prowess...I might have something overtly critical to say. No doubt there are some standards...but there is also a lot of gray area within those standards too.
Addressing this video directly, it seems that the opinions are that overall it is a decent piece of Aikido demo, but not an example of perfect technique demonstrated every time...this is how I feel about it also. But then show me some video of someone performing "perfect" Aikido. I didn't see anywhere on the video that claims the people on it were all-powerful-perfect-masters of Aikido. I rather enjoyed watching it, and yes there are things that I wouldn't do in my Aikido practice that they do...but that doesn't invalidate their practice or pursuit of Aikido, or even the stuff demonstrated on the short video clip. Discussing what they did on the 2 minute video demo is not invalid, but it also isn't an excuse to berate other people and what they do in order to validate your own sense of "right and wrong".

Mike

Dazzler 02-03-2005 09:30 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Quote:

Bronson Diffin wrote:
As a counterpoint to the first statement and reinforcement of the second: In Seidokan our ushiro attacks come from behind. The thinking is that Uke approached you from behind so you didn't have the opportunity to move to a better position ie. facing uke.

We have a separate type of attack called Ushiromawari+(attack) that denotes Uke coming from the front or side and attempting to get around to your back.

Aren't stylistic differences grand :D

Bronson

Thanks for the explanation Bronson. I think the second attack you describe is more like our version.

As I hoped...I learn something about the way others practice. ;)

Cheers

D

senshincenter 02-03-2005 09:36 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
Here's our take on ushiro-waza:

Ushiro-waza, or "rear techniques," are not a venture into self-defense scenario training any more than katate-dori is such a venture.  As katate-dori involves a martial honing of the body/mind by providing a tactile reference to the quality of one's martial attributes in the wrist-grab, ushiro-waza also cultivates a martial honing of the body/mind but by alternate means.  More than techniques from the front, ushiro-waza addresses the ever-changing dynamic of combat by allowing for more varied relationships to manifest themselves between uke's and nage's paths of action.  That is to say, the combination of vectors concerning things like Angles of Attack and Angles of Deviation become multitudinous within the very same engagement.  This abundance allows for an inexhaustible diversity that pressures the binary logic of the beginning practitioner to succumb to the fact that there should not be nor need be a front or back in combat, that there should not be nor need be a right or left in combat, that there should not be nor need be a near or far in combat, that there should not be nor need be an inside or outside in combat, etc.  Through spiraling tactical architectures, via ushiro-waza the aikidoka is to explore the various vector-to-vector relationships that are probable and possible as well as the tactical responses that are valid within an ever-changing situation that will always be void of any kind of two-dimensional orientation for that very reason.  Like katate-dori, the various grabs associated with ushiro-waza (e.g. ryote-dori, eri-dori, ryokata-dori, etc.) provide tactile sensors and/or stressors by which the quality of one's technique (i.e. the level at which a martial concept is embodied) can be measured and further cultivated.

bryce_montgomery 02-03-2005 10:48 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
I personally thought the video was nicely shot, with clean transitions, good footage (no matter if the form was correct or not...It would draw people in), background music, etc...

Bryce

jonreading 02-03-2005 10:53 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
How does the saying go? "Let he/she who has a video throw the first stone."

Sounds like lots of good comments to improve for video 2. Its often hard to perform on camera, and even harder when the action is not choreographed. It's tough to do picture-perfect aikido all of the time. I am not condoning bad technique because it looks better on film, but it's tough to make aikido look good on film.


I think there are definitely some techniques and sequences you'll want to revisit, but congratulations for putting something "in writing." I find a lot of aikido people tend to stay away from exposure (criticism perhaps?). This includes anything that can be used against them. I remember seeing my shodan tape and saying "what is that crap?". I am very self-conscious of myself and my aikido, and its tough to do something that exposes it to criticism. You have a great work-in-progress and I hope to continue to improve the video.

aikidoc 02-03-2005 10:54 AM

Re: Nice Video...
 
I wasn't sure if it was Toribio sensei-glad for the clarification. It looked a little like him due to the moustache and his lack of hair. There were a couple of points where he moved a little like him but the randori did not look like him. Thanks for the clairification.

The ukemi was overplayed but sometimes you get real light ukes and they do fly when a technique is done fully. If you watch Seagal's Path Beyond Thought, some of his ukes were over rotated as well althought I don't recall them landing face down.

With modern editing capabilities, we should start seeing better quality and presentation on such videos. This can only be good.


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