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-   -   kata dori vs. katate dori (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7429)

emi_moes 01-27-2005 07:36 PM

kata dori vs. katate dori
 
durring class today I recalled something that I've confused in the past while training. is kata dori the lapel grab & katate dori the same side wrist grab or do I have these confused?

Aristeia 01-27-2005 07:37 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
you are correct, kata dori = lapel/shoulder grab, katate tori = wrist grab

Chuck.Gordon 01-28-2005 01:00 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
In this context, in general usage:

Kata = shoulder
Ryokata = two/both shoulders
Eri = lapel
Katate = single wrist
Ryote or ryote mochi dori = both wrists (grabbed)
Morote = two hands grabbing one wrist
Kosa dori or kosa katate dori = single-wrist, cross-hand

There's some variation between styles and lineages, sometimes from dojo to dojo, too.

Chuck

Greg Jennings 01-28-2005 06:09 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Japanese seems to me to be the language of infinite homophones :).

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury 01-28-2005 06:30 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
Japanese seems to me to be the language of infinite homophones :).

Best regards,

Yes, this is what makes the language so interesting\and difficult. There are, for example, 139 different Chinese characters in written Japanese that can be read as 'ki', (as in ai-ki-do).

Best regards,

Andres Moliver 01-28-2005 07:16 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
For future reference, Te means hand. :) So anything with Te in it you can be sure is a grab at the wrist.

Don_Modesto 01-28-2005 10:20 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Andres Moliver wrote:
For future reference, Te means hand. :) So anything with Te in it you can be sure is a grab at the wrist.

Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.

emi_moes 02-03-2005 06:19 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
thank you very much, I later discused this with my sensai & it seemed something that a lot of past/current students have had difficulty with, he also differentiated between the 2 the next class peroid. once again thanks for the input

bryce_montgomery 02-05-2005 11:08 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.

You know...that makes sense:D....

Bryce

Mike Sigman 02-22-2005 07:52 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Yes, this is what makes the language so interesting\and difficult. There are, for example, 139 different Chinese characters in written Japanese that can be read as 'ki', (as in ai-ki-do).

Hi Peter:

Well.... reading and pronouncing wouldn't be the same "ki" though, would it? For the "Ki" we're generally talking about, both Chinese and Japanese tend to use the right-hand character up at the top left of this page, wouldn't you agree? Good heavens.... this reminds me of the story about a college professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the "Illiad" wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name. ;)

Mike

Rupert Atkinson 02-22-2005 05:32 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
To respond to Mike Sigman:

Actually, the ki character at the top of this page is NOT generally used in Japan today. Nor is it used in China. The character you see (above) is the old version. Both Japanese and Chinese use two different new versions - confusing huh? Only Korea uses the old original version (as above), except that, they rarely use kanji (hanja) in their writing these days.

PS Not sure about Taiwan - they probably use the old version too.

Peter Goldsbury 02-22-2005 06:23 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Peter:

Well.... reading and pronouncing wouldn't be the same "ki" though, would it? For the "Ki" we're generally talking about, both Chinese and Japanese tend to use the right-hand character up at the top left of this page, wouldn't you agree? Good heavens.... this reminds me of the story about a college professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the "Illiad" wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name. ;)

Mike

My point was, in response to Greg Jennings' post, the simpler one that, e.g., in gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.

Mike Sigman 02-22-2005 06:35 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
My point was, in response to Greg Jennings' post, the simpler one that, e.g., in gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.

Oh, that use of "ki". I thought we were talking about the single character, not the inclusive.

Mike

Peter Goldsbury 02-22-2005 06:53 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.

Hello Don,

My Japanese students here have a different problem.

Of course, there is the hearing problem. They hear the techniques called out in a grading test from people like me; their native language is uttered in a 'home' setting, but by non natives, which is usually a major challenge.

There is an additional problem causd by the fact that aikido terms are not really common Japanese. Thus, no adult Japanese would have any problem in immediately understanding and writing any of the terms mentioned in my earlier post (escept perhaps for jaki). But kata-dori? Taking the shoulder? Katate-dori? Half hand taking? They would need to fit these terms with the logograph-art gallery carried in their heads. I have found that the terms make much better sense after the techniques have been shown, not before.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury 02-22-2005 07:02 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
Oh, that use of "ki". I thought we were talking about the single character, not the inclusive.

Mike

Well, I was talking about single characters, but not just the middle character used in 'ai-KI-DOU'. Mr Jennings mentioned Japanese being a language of homophones and I take this to mean the same sound, but different characters / meanings. Writing the same character in different ways adds a further dimension to the problem.

Sincerely,

Don_Modesto 02-22-2005 09:47 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Hi, Peter,

That's interesting about your students not understanding the Jpn, either.

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
gen-ki (fit, well), denki (electricity), buki (weapons), ninki (term of office), and jaki (devil), the second character is read/pronounced the same, but the character and also the meaning is quite different in each case.

Any plans to write a book, Peter? You could write so many on aikido and I'd buy every one. Twice or more, probably, the way I buy Ellis' as gifts to aiki-buddies.

Bokken and Keyboard by Pete Goldsbury;

Aikido and Japanese Culture by P.A. Goldsbury;

Remembering Osensei's DESHI by Peter Goldsbury;

Aikido Shihan and the Harmony of Admin Meetings by Peter Goldsbury;

The Spiritual Pretensions of Aikido by Peter Goldsbury


...works for me, anyway...

YOROSHIKU!

Peter Goldsbury 02-23-2005 02:05 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
Hi, Peter,

That's interesting about your students not understanding the Jpn, either.



Any plans to write a book, Peter? You could write so many on aikido and I'd buy every one. Twice or more, probably, the way I buy Ellis' as gifts to aiki-buddies.

Bokken and Keyboard by Pete Goldsbury;

Aikido and Japanese Culture by P.A. Goldsbury;

Remembering Osensei's DESHI by Peter Goldsbury;

Aikido Shihan and the Harmony of Admin Meetings by Peter Goldsbury;

The Spiritual Pretensions of Aikido by Peter Goldsbury


...works for me, anyway...

YOROSHIKU!

Hello Don,

I'm working on it.

However, I think the last three publications would have to be posthumous :D .

Ryan Bigelow 02-23-2005 05:10 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Ive only trained in the US once, but I couldn't understand any of the Japanese spoken in the dojo either. My Japanese is far from perfect, but Ive become use to hearing the "perfect" (read:native) pronunciation (with a heavy dose of mikawa-ben of course :D ) so foreign pronunciation might as well be an entirely different language.

Don_Modesto 02-23-2005 08:58 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I'm working on it.

However, I think the last three publications would have to be posthumous :D .

Ah! Well, in that case, by all means, take your time. :)

Gabriel A 02-24-2005 08:09 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
Judging from folks' reactions on tests, this can be hard to hear. What you might try instead of listening for words is listening for beat:.kata dori--4 beats;. katate dori--5.

Could you pls explain this a little bit more...
Thanxs
Gabriel

Pablo Tamargo 02-24-2005 10:40 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Gabriel,

I thik that if you reed the words by every pair of leters they will soun more less like: ka-ta do-ri four beat (cuatro tiempos en espaņol), and ka-ta-te do-ri five beats (cinco tiempos).

Sorry for the spanish words guys, I was just trying to explain myself beter to gabriel. (tiempos means tempo like in music.)

Pablo Tamargo 02-24-2005 10:42 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Sorry I missed some letters in think and sound. oooops :sorry:

Gabriel A 02-24-2005 10:53 AM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
thanx Pablo... but what does the beats do for me? still don't get that part?

Don_Modesto 02-24-2005 02:07 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
Quote:

Gabriel Arias wrote:
Could you pls explain this a little bit more...
Thanxs
Gabriel

Mr. Tamargo did an admirable job. Does it work for you yet?

Pablo Tamargo 02-24-2005 02:42 PM

Re: kata dori vs. katate dori
 
As I undertood, Don is saying that during examinations, the students (under stress) react to an instruction that they think they heard. If the instructor order them to perform katate dori they may hear kata dori and do someting diferent than expected, and that by listening to the tempo and the general sound of the instructiion it may be easier to get it right.

Thats what I did get from it. :confused:


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