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Casey Martinson 01-18-2005 07:57 AM

Taking the high road
 
Hello all,
I've been reading this forum for a few weeks now, and I'll make my introduction here. After waiting many years, I've been training in Aikido for going on three weeks. I absolutely love it.

One thing I really appreciate about this forum is the level of respect and intelligence demonstrated in the posts. A few days ago, I was reading a thread regarding counter techniques to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This sparked my interest in learning more about BJJ as well. I studied a little bit of grappling as a karate student in high school, back when the UFC was brand new. I know it can be a tremendously valuable skill for self defense, although hopefully, aikido will allow me to avoid the need for such skills.

Anyway, long story short, I went to jiu-jitsu.net for more info, and found the forum pages to be very disappointing. The posts are full of ego, crude language, and aggressive attitudes.

My impression was that UFC has had the effect of swelling BJJ schools with immature guys (very few "chicks") who want to be able to beat the crap out of all comers. Do any readers here have recent experience training in BJJ? Am I wrong? I'd like to someday look into learning BJJ but if I have to put up with the "ultimate fighter complex", forget it.

Also, has anyone spent much time developing aikido against grappling attacks? I've long though that the serious martial artist wouldn't have to be concerned about such training, because most people who start fights are not skilled fighters. But perhaps the UFC effect is changing that equation. Any thoughts?

Once again, kudos to all the members of aikiweb for taking the high road. I look forward to your posts.

Casey Martinson

SeiserL 01-18-2005 08:42 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
I don't know that we have taken the high road because that implies a lot of ego and judgement. But then again, there is a lot of that too. I think different temperments find different martial arts to study that match it.

Look at Suwari-waza to handle grappling situations. Have not done much BJJ training, but one of the Machado brothers will be at the Aiki Expo.

paw 01-18-2005 08:48 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
Anyway, long story short, I went to jiu-jitsu.net for more info, and found the forum pages to be very disappointing. The posts are full of ego, crude language, and aggressive attitudes.

My impression was that UFC has had the effect of swelling BJJ schools with immature guys (very few "chicks") who want to be able to beat the crap out of all comers. Do any readers here have recent experience training in BJJ? Am I wrong? I'd like to someday look into learning BJJ but if I have to put up with the "ultimate fighter complex", forget it.

Different bulletin boards have different vibes. I've not been to jiu-jitsu.net, but I wouldn't call the specialized bjj boards at mma.tv "full of ego, crude language or aggressive attitudes", although folks are a lot more loose than here.

You can also check out Roy Harris' message board. Roy Dean, one of Mr. Harris students, posts here from time to time and give you more insight.


As to training in bjj, I've been doing so for the past 5 years. I've not encountered the "ultimate fighter complex" from anywhere I've trained, and I've trained with people who have and do compete in mixed martial art competitions on a regular basis. Like aikido, it's worthwhile to take the time to find an instructor and school that you feel comfortable with.

Roy Dean, being located in more of a bjj mecca, may have a different perspective. In my neck of the woods, I see far more bjj schools that are focused on the sportive aspects (gi and no gi competitions) after some basic self-defense is covered.

There certainly are bjj schools that focus on mma, but they tend to do so after their students have a basic understanding of self-defense and are more seasoned (high blue belt or purple belt).

Oh, one last comment. There are women in bjj, but on average, there tend to be more women in aikido, at least in my area. I've been told by some of women that tried bjj for a while before leaving, that the close contact of grappling as well as weight/strength differences are initially hard to get used to. However, like aikido, weight/strength differences can and are overcome by skill and technique, provided you put the time in training.


Hope this helps,

Paul

Dazzler 01-18-2005 09:08 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Hi Lynn

Before any of our non aikidoka readers mauls this...I think you need a lot more that suwari waza to combat grappling techniques.

I first grappled in a formal club environment at I time when I was nidan in aikido.

I was shocked to find that standard aikido was really of no use at all.

Against untrained novice grapplers I could more than hold my own thanks to my familiarity with aiki body work and lots of grappling as a schoolkid but was no match for the highly skilled seniors.

Casey - don't fall into the trap that so many others are in by assuming that BJJ or any of the other grappling arts are superior or inferior to aikido for self defence.

Grappling is a specialist skill just as aikido is.

Both need some adaptation to be used as self defence or offensively.

The best grapplers I worked with had no more and no less ego than the best aikido guys I've worked with....but due to it favouring young testosterone afflicted men I can see how it would have a higher percentage of macho men than a subtler art form.

Lynn - apologies for contradicting you in this way, have read a lot of your posts and agree with much of what you say.

Respectfully

D

Casey Martinson 01-18-2005 09:57 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Thanks for the posts.

1) Regarding the "high road," I'm new here so I haven't seen it all yet, but I still think this forum is unique in its civility and thoughtfulness--not that there aren't real arguments.

2) I am not starting another "aikido vs. other art" thread here. I just wanted to poll those with BJJ experience regarding the general attitude of dojos they've trained in, visited, etc. (i.e., Is there a UFC complex or not?) Thanks for speaking to that particular point.

My second question was, do any of you give more time to defending against grapplers now that UFC has perhaps begun to attract more hot-heads to BJJ. If you haven't seen it, there is even now a reality TV show about a bunch of guys living together and training for the UFC. I think UFC is coming into pop culture the way pro wrestling has in the last five years or so; I don't see how that could not encourage a lot more misguided angry males to dojos, where they'll learn just enough to be dangerous.

As for my "very few 'chicks'" comment, I meant that women were not well represented in that forum--"chicks" being the common term used there.


with respect,
Casey

paw 01-18-2005 11:26 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
I think UFC is coming into pop culture the way pro wrestling has in the last five years or so; I don't see how that could not encourage a lot more misguided angry males to dojos, where they'll learn just enough to be dangerous.

I'd be interested in other people's perspectives, but in my experience, "misguided angry males" don't stick around in bjj academies or mma training facilities. Because you have to spar every class, you quickly learn that there are people who are bigger, stronger, faster and more technically proficient (and if that's not true, you learn that performance varies from day to day. The partner you "dominate" today is the one that "dominates" you tomorrow). The "misguided angry male's" ego can't handle getting beaten, and they leave.

As far as the UFC becoming a part of pop culture, I don't see that happening. (Quick, who's the current UFC heavyweight champion? Light Heavyweight champion? When's the next UFC?) MMA is still a fringe sport, albeit a growing one. But MMA has a very, very long way to go before it has the $$$$ and impact of professional wrestling.

Regards,

Paul

Colbs 01-18-2005 04:06 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
I'll also have to disagree with Lynn, although I haven't been doing Aikido that long, and definitely don't have much in the way of skill or experience, I've always understood Suwari Waza to be about teaching you to move with the hips - it's impossible to move about on your knees unless the movement comes from the hips.

You will never face a grappler on your knees. You will be on your back.

Casey, the best way to learn to handle grapplers is to take some classes and learn how to incorporate the principles you've learned from both your Aikido and BJJ. I wouldn't suggest it until you've got a very firm basis in aikido though, it's more than enough of a challenge. I won't be doing any cross-training myself until I'm well on the way to Nidan (in about 123918093821 more years).

BJJ and Aikido really shouldn't "clash" in any other way than culturally (depending on the person). BJJ is designed for a very different range in very different situations to Aikido and should fit quite well (IMO).

A lot of Aikidoka will tell you that you don't need any grappling beacause you'll never end up on the ground, and perhaps that's mostly true - unless you stuff up, and that's quite likely. The BJJ people will tell you that 6 months will enable you to beat just anyone who hasn't trained grappling on the ground - that means you can pick up the principles pretty quickly, enough to give you an idea anyway (the chances of you getting attacked by a trained martial-artist are statistically small). Given the short amount of time required to get a 'grounding' I'm surprised at how few senior Aikidoka have done any training in it.

SeiserL 01-18-2005 10:12 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
I think you need a lot more that suwari waza to combat grappling techniques...apologies for contradicting you in this way,

No problem, no contradiction, only a clarification.

IMHO, suwari-waza is the closest thing in Aikido to grappling or ground techniques. Have you seen anything else that even remotely addresses the issue? I never said it was effective in combating grappling technqiues, just that its a place to look.

I agree that every art has its advantages in context, and the ground is not a place most Aikido people go.

Lan Powers 01-18-2005 10:48 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
quote> (the chances of you getting attacked by a trained martial-artist are statistically small). <

That is weird to me....it seems everybody I know is a Martial Artist of some sort, has done some, or is a former boxer...etc.
Lots more seem to be trained some way or other, than ever before.
Just funny
Lan

eyrie 01-18-2005 10:48 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
How about this food for thought:

1. It is undignified for a samurai to be wrestling in the dirt - therefore....
2. If you do end up on the ground, the first thing you would try to do is get up on your knees - preferably in the mount position - from where you have control

Colbs 01-18-2005 11:16 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Lan,

It all depends on the circles you move in, whilst the martial arts is becoming far more popular, so it's becoming more and more likely, that still doesn't make it statistically so. Most violent crimes are committed by a family member/relative.

Ignatius,

Much, much easier said than done, you try getting to your knees after someone's hit you with a double-leg takedown and is positioning for a mount - your best option is probably to go for a guard and then try and get a sankyo/nikkyo.

If you can get to your knees, you can get to your feet, no grappler worth their salt will let you get back up once you're on the ground, disengaging from them is nearly impossible because they maintain very, very close contact.

eyrie 01-19-2005 02:54 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Colby Pender wrote:
...
Ignatius,

Much, much easier said than done, you try getting to your knees after someone's hit you with a double-leg takedown and is positioning for a mount - your best option is probably to go for a guard and then try and get a sankyo/nikkyo.

If you can get to your knees, you can get to your feet, no grappler worth their salt will let you get back up once you're on the ground, disengaging from them is nearly impossible because they maintain very, very close contact.

Absolutely! IF you can get to your knees... and that's a BIG IF, especially if they have a weight advantage. Unfortunately, in a dojo/training scenario it's not "nice" to pinch or poke a nice exposed pressure point to get them off you in a hurry! ;)

Dazzler 01-19-2005 04:04 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
No problem, no contradiction, only a clarification.

IMHO, suwari-waza is the closest thing in Aikido to grappling or ground techniques. Have you seen anything else that even remotely addresses the issue?.

Not in aikido. We've had a bit of a grapple as a warm up but thats about it.

wendyrowe 01-19-2005 05:12 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
My Aikido Sensei Jason DeLucia is also a UFC and Pancrase fighter, and firmly believes we should train in groundwork not just standing Aikido. We train in Aikido and Pancrase Hybrid JuJitsu, so we learn lots of BJJ techniques and do lots of suwariwaza. Whenever possible, Sensei works and has us aim to work from suwari instead of working BJJ techniques, keeping more upright. He's got some training clips on aikidog.com that will give you something of an idea.

Our dojo has serious students in it, not hot-headed kids. As for women doing groundwork, I've been training with Sensei for about a year and a half and have been grappling all along. I think it's a very important skill, and would hate to think of what might happen if I ever got attacked and didn't know how to handle myself on the ground. Besides the assorted-sized guys in class (all bigger than me so it's quite a challenge), one of my current partners is a policewoman who knows she lacks groundwork and wants to fill in that gap to keep safe.

Here's a clip showing Sensei getting out of a common BJJ position:
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...op=show&pid=91

Pardon the camera work at the start of this one; it was hard for the cameraman to get into position so it moves around at first. It settles down so you can really see what's happening. Sensei is using suwariwaza in a situation police asked about because it's so common:
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...p=show&pid=115

Casey Martinson 01-19-2005 09:46 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
wendy, thanks for those clips. more to the point though, it seems there is a near consensus that aikido is not the best tool for ground fighting. so i would assume the best way to defend against a grappling attacker is to stay off the ground to begin with. a grappler has to take you down first in order to gain the advantage, right? so it seems the aikido defense against grappling should be intercepting whatever takedown technique is being attempted and controlling the conflict from there. i don't know much at all about BJJ takedowns (or judo or wrestling takedowns), but it seems like the aikido repetoire is full of techniques to deal with an opponent making a grab for your wrist/sleeve/lapel etc. (legs?) has anybody trained against grappling from a stand point of preventing the takedown?

casey

wendyrowe 01-19-2005 10:18 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Casey,

The first line of defense is always trying to remain upright, you're exactly right about that. Pretty much any technique can be used, whichever best counters your opponent's move. The simplest thing is just moving out of the way before he can grab you -- say, tsugiashi and irimi or irimi tenkan to keep you out of the way and put you in a position to do irimi nage or whatever other technique you want. You need to practice counters so you can flow into a new technique when he blocks out the ones you're trying; and you need to practice counters to grabs so you'll be able to turn his moves against him. You have to watch out for single- and double-leg takedown attempts, too; and there are surely some judoka out there who'll try to grab you around the waist and suplex you, so maintaining ma ai to keep from being grabbed securely is a great idea if you can manage it. And you need to practice getting loose and back up on your feet before he can mount you or pull you into his guard or otherwise maintain an advantage when he manages to take you down. One on one randori attacking with a wide variety of techniques is a good way to practice this sort of thing.

But if you're trying to end a real fight, at some point you're going to have to secure your opponent since otherwise he'll keep fighting unless he's unconscious -- so to do that, you're going to have to take HIM to the ground (with koshinage or shihonage or kote gaeshi, e.g.) and will probably hold him in a joint lock while you're in suwari.

You asked a great question, though: what techniques do you aikidoka use against someone trying to take you down? I'm looking forward to hearing from those of you who train that way.

paw 01-19-2005 11:15 AM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
so i would assume the best way to defend against a grappling attacker is to stay off the ground to begin with. a grappler has to take you down first in order to gain the advantage, right?

That's considerably easier said than done.

In mma competitions, Olympic-level wrestlers have been taken down by people far less skilled in takedowns and takedown defense. The less "rules" an environment has, the more possibilities there are to set up a specific attack, and the more the defender has to defend.

This may be knit-picking, but in my mind "grappling" does not mean "groundwork". There are some exceptional wrestlers, judoka, bjj'ers, sombist, etc....who can and have ended fights by throwing. Yes, their opponent was taken to the ground, but only to use the ground as an immovable object to slam someone with.

Personally, I think Wendy hits it on the head when she says you need to practice getting loose and back up on your feet .

Regards,

Paul

Casey Martinson 01-19-2005 12:53 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
"That's considerably easier said than done."

Isn't that true of Aikido in general?

"The less "rules" an environment has, the more possibilities there are to set up a specific attack, and the more the defender has to defend."

Again, this seems to apply to any real life self defense situation.

"This may be knit-picking, but in my mind "grappling" does not mean "groundwork". There are some exceptional wrestlers, judoka, bjj'ers, sombist, etc....who can and have ended fights by throwing. "

Whether they're doing a takedown/throw to get you on the ground or simply to bodyslam you into unconsciousness, I think what I said still applies: the best defense is to avoid their takedown/throw attempt--which i assume would involve some kind of grab for your body--and use that attack as your point of blending. I didn't mean to imply that grappling wasn't effective off the ground. But off the ground, aikido and grappling are perhaps on a more even playing field. In fact, in principle, it seems to me that aikido has the advantage.

"you need to practice getting loose and back up on your feet ."

if i can't avoid being thrown, what's the point of getting back up on my feet? i'll just get thrown again. if can't avoid the throw, i'd just as soon get thrown only one time--thus limiting damage from repeated impacts--and try my luck on the ground.

it seems there are two paths in defense against grappling. the only aikido path i see is "avoid the throw/takedown/grapple attempt, blend with the attempt, and bring your opponent under control."
the other path is to train in ground fighting.

i don't practice aikido because i think it will provide a quick and easy path to self defense; i practice because i believe in its ideals and principles. and i think that executed properly, those ideals and principles can be very effective. if we're looking for self defense that is as easily done as said, why not just carry a concealed weapon? there's nothing as easy as pulling a trigger. would O'Sensei have advised his students to train in grappling because it is "easier said than done" to avoid the throw or takedown of a trained grappler? my rank amateur guess is that he would not. so what are the options given to us by aikido?

paw 01-19-2005 02:22 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
"That's considerably easier said than done."

Isn't that true of Aikido in general?

That's for you to determine over the course of your training. The point is it may be unwise to presume anyone can develop their abilities to the point that they cannot be taken to the ground .


Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
Whether they're doing a takedown/throw to get you on the ground or simply to bodyslam you into unconsciousness, I think what I said still applies: the best defense is to avoid their takedown/throw attempt--which i assume would involve some kind of grab for your body--and use that attack as your point of blending. I didn't mean to imply that grappling wasn't effective off the ground. But off the ground, aikido and grappling are perhaps on a more even playing field. In fact, in principle, it seems to me that aikido has the advantage.

Again, I urge you to consider that it is unlikely someone can develop their abilities to the point where they cannot be taken to ground by throw, tackle, takedown or happenstance.

As to if aikido has the advantage in principle, that is something you will have to discover on your own.


Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
if i can't avoid being thrown, what's the point of getting back up on my feet?

That is where your compentancies are. You would want to engage someone where you are strong, don't you? If you don't know how to groundfight and are facing someone who does, you won't fare well.

Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
i don't practice aikido because i think it will provide a quick and easy path to self defense; i practice because i believe in its ideals and principles.

Then why worry about groundwork or bjj attacks? Just train aikido.

Quote:

Casey Martinson wrote:
if we're looking for self defense that is as easily done as said, why not just carry a concealed weapon? there's nothing as easy as pulling a trigger.

Concealed carry of firearms isn't legal in all places. Also, this solution, carrying a firearm, isn't an appropriate response for all threats. Finally, "pulling a trigger" isn't easy. Most rounds fired in real world gunfights...miss. Shooting a firearm, like aikido, is a skill that must be acquired by training.


Regards,

Paul

happysod 01-19-2005 02:44 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Quote:

it seems there are two paths in defense against grappling. the only aikido path i see is "avoid the throw/take down/grapple attempt, blend with the attempt, and bring your opponent under control." the other path is to train in ground fighting
I'd have to take issue here, ground-fighting is just (just he laughs wryly after now having been briefly introduced to them) a different set of techniques. I see no reason you cannot apply the principles of aikido within the framework of ground fighting. Bringing your opponent under control is surely the main point of the ground work (certainly of what I've seen) and atemi has long been a big part of aikido - OK , you may want to omit the ground and pound part...

Sorry, with Paul on the dubious nature of "I'll never be taken to ground" - but my main hope is I'm better at stay-up/keep away than they are at take-down.

Casey Martinson 01-19-2005 05:16 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
i must not be communicating my point very well. let me try again.

if one is only interested in self defense, without concern for any ethical considerations, there are surely many easier paths to becoming attack resistant than aikido. yes, shooting a gun requires some training to be consistently effective. but if you watch the news, it's obvious there are a lot of people killing and maiming their fellow humans everyday with firearms, and they probably have little or no training. i would guess that a hundred hours of handgun training would render me physically more than capable of killing, maiming, or otherwise dissuading an attacker, even one skilled in BJJ or some other art.

on the other hand, to ward off an attack using aikido, i may need to spend thousands of hours training. however, because i care about resolving conflicts without bringing death or serious injury to my opponent, i'm willing to put in the time. it's not that i don't care about self defense. i am very interested in defending myself, but i want to do it with as little violence as possible. you must understand, i'm not being naive here, just idealistic, and i think there's a considerable difference between the two. after all, aikido is nothing if not idealistic.

so although i respect your opinions, what i'm seeing is this:

Me: How can aikido be used to prevent a take-down/throw?

You guys: You'll probably get taken to the ground, so better be prepared to deal with it.

If you get thrown down, try to get up.

It's unrealistic to think you can be totally effective at avoiding the throw/grapple.

While all those answers may or may not be true, they don't address my question. It's okay if you don't know how to defend against being thrown/grappled, but I don't think that makes it a waste of time to learn and practice such strategies. If you have any input regarding an aikido defense against the throw/takedown, let's hear it. If you're just going to go on about how hard it is, there is no need; I heard you the first time.

With love and respect,
Casey

Casey Martinson 01-19-2005 05:22 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
actually, i my original question was, do any of you train against takedowns/throws in light of the growing popularity of styles that emphasize those techniques. so far, i think most of you have answered "no." (the answer, "yes, i crosstrain in groundfighting/grappling" does not count. i'm looking for "yes, we practice aikido defense against takedown/throwing attempts." anybody out there who can say yes?

Casey Martinson 01-19-2005 05:30 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
one more thing

" I see no reason you cannot apply the principles of aikido within the framework of ground fighting. Bringing your opponent under control is surely the main point of the ground work (certainly of what I've seen) and atemi has long been a big part of aikido"

not that you can't use aikido principles in ground fighting, but certainly it seems much more difficult in that your movement is much more limited and your opponents movements are much smaller. bringing your opponent under control may be the main point of ground work, but that doesn't make it aikido. from what i've seen of BJJ/wrestling/etc., the techniques require some amount of muscling. in other words, you're opposing force with force. am i wrong to say that opposing force with force is antithetical to aikido? as for atemi, my impression is that it's main purpose is to distract or redirect or somehow off-balance your opponent.

Colbs 01-19-2005 05:51 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Here's some random rambling on the topic:

You'll find most groundfighters don't use force against force, it just looks like it because of the extream close range they are engaged at, as they can't move far, they must make very small redirections of force, rather than the larger ones we're used to. If you're looking for direct application of aikido principle, go for a sankyo or nikkyo lock (wrist, ankle, whatever).

Against a good shot (takedown) the only thing that has proved effective to gain you position is the sprawl, against a crappy tackle, you may be able to get some tenkan and throw. But a tackle IS NOT a takedown, takedowns are not launched until they've closed into striking range and they're done quickly, and usually set up so as to take you by surprise.

As for the I want an "Aikido defense" - I'm sure I remember reading the founder saying that he practised aikido, therefore anything he did was aikido (or words to that effect). Striking (atemi) is not contrary to aikido, neither (IMO) is grappling, nor anything else.

If you want to know how to deliver strong atemi, you need to train with good strikers, if you want to know how to grapple well, you need to train with good grapplers. Aikido is a set of principles and philosophies, but often parts are glossed over, and assumed. I'm sure the founder assumed that all his main students knew how to punch (most came to him from other arts first), and at the time groundfighting wasn't the current fad, so it was probably not very emphasised. After all, the ground is the LAST place you want to be in any conflict (except in a ring, where there are no perhaps-not-quite-so innocent bystanders).

Crosstraining can only enhance your Aikido, it will teach you about weaknesses you have, and no-doubt re-emphasise just how useful it is as an art.

Aristeia 01-19-2005 07:22 PM

Re: Taking the high road
 
Ok, I'm coming in a bit late but let me respond first to the original question. I can completely understand where the original poster is coming from. Aikiweb is a good example of an aikido board, polite, disciplined, respectful. Many MMA/BJJ dominated sites on the web have more than their fair share of arrogant boors doing alot of posturing. But my experience in the real world is quite diferent. Almost without exception, everyone I've met on the BJJ mat has been polite, helpful and eager to train and share while exhibiting respect. In fact if I'm being honest, I see more people with run away ego's in Aikido than I do in BJJ. Maybe something to do with the lack of competition so they never get called on it? Who knows. So yes, although I share your experience of the various groups on the internet, it is not reflected in real life.
As for incorporating grappling defences in Aikido? Hmmmm. I've been cross training for a little while. I do some of it in my garage with my Aikido students. Every now and again I come under some pressure to incorporate some of that into my aikido classes. Sometimes I will, maybe a single technique over several months worth of classes (e.g. arm drag to get you out of trouble, knee ride when uke doesn't roll on to their stomach from ikkyo). but at the end of the day I'm not sure it's up to me to do this. As long as we're being honest with people as to where the strategic gaps in our art are, they are free to go and fill those gaps as they wish, just as I have. They'll get much more benefit from going to a judo or bjj class than from me trying to incorporate those things into an aikido class. I've exposed them to some of it, everyone knows I do it and I think it's worthwhile, my work is done. It's up to them to take the next step.


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