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rookie 12-25-2004 07:48 PM

aikido for police
 
hey, i'm will. new to the forum and i'm looking for some solid advice on aikido. i've been a cop in new orleans for two years and i switched to the state police. troopers spend alot of time on the road ,alone, with little or no back up. would aikido give me real life techniques to use in situations. are there knife/gun defenses/takedowns or takeaways? and reading about aikido its mostly defensive, can you use it offensively? i'm not looking to be a ufc champ nor do i want to be the tough guy in the dept. i want to be the humble cop with an arsenal of tricks up my sleeve if push comes to shove. any advice would be appreciated. hope everyone had a good xmas.thanks. by the way has anybody heard anything about the dojo in new orleans(aikido new orleans)
-will

aikidoc 12-25-2004 08:46 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
The Tokyo police use it. We have weapons take aways, take downs, locks and pins. Find a good instructor and go watch a class.

rookie 12-25-2004 08:54 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
all aikido styles have those techniques and all styles can be used for police work?

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 12-25-2004 10:32 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
Short answer: yes. Now, some styles might be better for you in this regard, but instructor/dojo may matter more than style. Some schools are more martial than others.

For the record, the style taught to the riot police is Yoshinkai. However, I recall hearing positive testimonials from police officers studying many different styles.

Try a few classes, see if you like it. What it's doing for you 'practically' may be hard to tell at first, but try to gauge that a little as well. I think you'll need to do most of the assessment here, not us.

Good luck.

AikiRooster 12-25-2004 11:02 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
Trooper Bosworth:

Hello sir. Cpl.Nelson here. I'm a Federal copper. Aikido is good, very good for police work. However, never would I suggest that it's enough alone, or any other style for that matter. I would suggest that Aikido, Hapkido, Aiki Jujutsu and some other Jujutsu systems out there are your best for police work. I would also suggest you train in some grappling stlyes as well. Like it or not, one of these days, your gonna make that one traffic stop alone and the fool you pulled over is gonna be a humungous smelly dude. Your gonna be taken to the ground if you havn't shot him yet. If so, you had better know how to handle yourself down there and most importantly do not panic. Write to me anytime you wish Trooper Bosworth, I think I can probably help you.
Take care and God Bless.
Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you too as well as the rest of the Aiki family here.

rookie 12-25-2004 11:26 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
cpl nelson, thank you. just for the record i'm still in training but trooper has a good ring to it. i totally agree with cross training. in your opinion. what martial art would you suggest I start with, become proficient in, then start cross training? thanks.
-will

PeterR 12-26-2004 12:58 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
For those that point out the use of Aikido in police work.

The techniques can be quite effective but how they are trained is vitally important.

My teacher until a couple of years ago was an instructor to the Osaka police but what he taught and more to the point how he taught it differs from the Hombu curriculum. Still the same techniques but where lies the emphasis. Apparently Judo, Kendo, certain styles of Karate and Shodokan Aikido are considered pluses if you wish to joint the department but once in - they have their own way of doing things.

Another thing to consider is that Aikido is really most effective while the distance is being closed. Not exactly useless when you are within grappling distance but I would consider Judo to be the best best for that. One would think that in the range Aikido works best you would still have hold of your firearm.

thomas_dixon 12-26-2004 01:45 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

William Bosworth wrote:
hey, i'm will. new to the forum and i'm looking for some solid advice on aikido. i've been a cop in new orleans for two years and i switched to the state police. troopers spend alot of time on the road ,alone, with little or no back up. would aikido give me real life techniques to use in situations. are there knife/gun defenses/takedowns or takeaways? and reading about aikido its mostly defensive, can you use it offensively? i'm not looking to be a ufc champ nor do i want to be the tough guy in the dept. i want to be the humble cop with an arsenal of tricks up my sleeve if push comes to shove. any advice would be appreciated. hope everyone had a good xmas.thanks. by the way has anybody heard anything about the dojo in new orleans(aikido new orleans)
-will

I'd suggest the FMAs, Krav Maga or Brazilian Jiujitsu for police, rather than Aikido.

The FMAs are edged weapons (also include unarmed, however) and so if you mention to the instructor you're a cop, he may be able to give you a headstart on the knife (and gun if they have them) disarms after you get the basics down.

Krav Maga is the Israeli army's official Martial Arts system. It's hard to find an authentic school, but the art is based on diffusing the situation as fast as possible.

Brazilian Jiujitsu is groundfighting, and grappling mostly but has some standing techniques. It can be helpful when you take a guy down, and have to keep him there long enough for backup to arrive so they can cuff him.

You might also want to check around your department, and see if you can find any informaiton about seminars for police officers that include weapons defense.

darin 12-26-2004 11:23 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
How about a self defence system that is specially designed for law enforcement officers like the ones on this site: http://www.hockscqc.com/ ?

Charles Hill 12-26-2004 11:29 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Will,

Is the instructor in New Orleans, Nathan Hill?

Charles

Michael Hackett 12-26-2004 11:44 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Dear Will,

There is no magic bullet martial art for police work. Aikido is terrific for law enforcement as it is effective and techniques largely appear benign to the public, unlike some of the other arts. The downside is that aikido takes considerable time to develop proficiency. You might check into Robert Koga's Practical Aikido - a specifically developed course of instruction of law enforcement that is outstanding. The other arts have their place in police work; brazilian jujitsu certainly fits well with the needs of law enforcement officers. After 30 years as a cop, my view is that the best martial art available to you is the weapon between your ears. Using your head will prevent a whole lot of sweating, biting and gouging and keep your uniform clean.

If you run into your old Chief, Eddie Compass, give him my regards. We went to the FBI National Academy together.

Good luck at the LSP Academy.

rookie 12-26-2004 02:07 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
charles, yes i belive he is still a sensei there, but the chief instructor there is larry ozenberger

Rocky Izumi 12-27-2004 03:18 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Will,

Is the instructor in New Orleans, Nathan Hill?

Charles

Yes. Nathan is good. He was one of my Kohai. He used to be with the Midwest Aikido Federation under Tohei Akira Sensei. He is not under Larry Ozenberger last time I heard.

The Hong Kong Police Force still only train in Aikido even though there are many other martial arts available in Hong Kong.

I've been training police, security, and military for over 20 years.

A ERT NCO and I came up with a teaching format for police we call the Aikido Control Tactics System that incorporates the principles of Aikido into basic defense, control and arrest, weapons retention, intermediate weapons usage, firearms training, and driving training. We wanted something that was easier to teach to police since most officers get one shot at learning something and never get a chance to practice it again except on the job. The structure is systemised so that the same lessons are taught over and over again using different situations. It seems to work rather well.

However, there are lot of other teaching systems out there that work just as well such a Sensei Koga's system and the late Sosa Sensei's PACT System.

My suggestion is to start Aikido and fill in the gaps as you see fit. Training of any kind is better than no training at all. Just remember to apply the proper Use of Force Policy understanding as determined by your police service.

Rock

PeterR 12-27-2004 03:25 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Hiroaki Izumi wrote:
Just remember to apply the proper Use of Force Policy understanding as determined by your police service.

I guess that means no noogie waza. :D

One reason I like the idea of Judo over Aikido is you get to mix it up sooner. Toughening of sould and body. Boxings good too but the use of force thingy gets in the way I would think.

Don't teacher the police, don't want to teach the police, just playing armchair expert.

Rocky Izumi 12-27-2004 01:30 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
I guess that means no noogie waza. :D

One reason I like the idea of Judo over Aikido is you get to mix it up sooner. Toughening of sould and body. Boxings good too but the use of force thingy gets in the way I would think.

Don't teacher the police, don't want to teach the police, just playing armchair expert.

You're right. The "Use of Force Policy" of most police services puts a real crimp into the use of martial arts in policing, as does the prevalence of video cams, news media, and human rights groups, as well as the prevalence of HIV/AIDS in a lot of jurisdictions.

The Use of Force Policy is usually there to protect both the officer and the police service from liability and injury. It is a difficult balancing act that requires the cooperation of the judicial system, media, the public, and the police service. It is because of these Use of Force issues that most police services have taken up Aikido or some version of it as a large part of their defensive tactics training. The difficulty with doing this is that training tends to be on the basis of techniques rather than principles so officers have difficulty remembering it, practicing it, and applying it to other situations. As well, as you pointed out, you can't teach the aikido based on techniques because then, it doesn't become applicable to situations such as groundfighting, weapons usage, and vehicle usage. When taught based on principles, then the lessons carry through all the way.

Gotta get off to Kendo. Later dudes.

Rock

Dave603 12-28-2004 08:01 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
I think I've said this before in other posts, but my opinion is that as a cop, you have a tool belt with lots of stuff on it. You select the appropriate tool when in a confrontation, and these are not just gun, baton, taser, spray, cuffs, etc. Also on that tool belt is your training and experience, be it in firearms, crisis negotiation, police defensive tactics, or whatever. In today's society of litigation, it pays to have as many effective tools available as you can. Aikido is no magic bullet, and it does take lots of regular practice to become (and to remain) proficient. But I think many of its techniques (and attitudes) are useful tools for your toolbelt. I'm glad I have it on my tool belt! I also second Michael's comment that the best tool you have is between your ears. I've used it many times to end a situation safely for all involved, which is always preferable to injuries, lawsuits, and your cruiser video on the eleven o'clock news!

Rocky Izumi 12-28-2004 07:43 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Dave Cole wrote:
I think I've said this before in other posts, but my opinion is that as a cop, you have a tool belt with lots of stuff on it. You select the appropriate tool when in a confrontation, and these are not just gun, baton, taser, spray, cuffs, etc. Also on that tool belt is your training and experience, be it in firearms, crisis negotiation, police defensive tactics, or whatever. In today's society of litigation, it pays to have as many effective tools available as you can. Aikido is no magic bullet, and it does take lots of regular practice to become (and to remain) proficient. But I think many of its techniques (and attitudes) are useful tools for your toolbelt. I'm glad I have it on my tool belt! I also second Michael's comment that the best tool you have is between your ears. I've used it many times to end a situation safely for all involved, which is always preferable to injuries, lawsuits, and your cruiser video on the eleven o'clock news!

Nice post Dave. Thanks for reminding all of us to use our heads for things other than Irish kisses..

BTW, Aikido principles also work verbally. e.g. Join, then lead. Old negotiation strategy. Or, continuous kuzushi until kime.

Rock

kironin 12-29-2004 08:04 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Darin Hyde wrote:
How about a self defence system that is specially designed for law enforcement officers like the ones on this site: http://www.hockscqc.com/ ?

isn't that site relevant to another certain thread on this site ?

from martial arts experience on that site ...
"10th Dan Black Belt and Founder of the S. F. Congress, recognized by the World Global Alliance and other international martial arts organizations."

I get a real bad taste in my mouth when people start marketing their system as "scientific" and there isn't a hint of scientific training in their background.

DaveO 12-29-2004 08:23 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

Craig Hocker wrote:
isn't that site relevant to another certain thread on this site ?

from martial arts experience on that site ...
"10th Dan Black Belt and Founder of the S. F. Congress, recognized by the World Global Alliance and other international martial arts organizations."

I get a real bad taste in my mouth when people start marketing their system as "scientific" and there isn't a hint of scientific training in their background.

Whoo - gonna back you up on that one; Craig.

Any site that talks about 'Close quarters combat' as 'self defense' and goes on to spend half its front page trying to justify its instructors well...

The background of some dude (apparently the head instructor; since he's in every pic) improperly holding a handgun doesn't ease my mind much either.

kironin 12-29-2004 08:24 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
Quote:

William Bosworth wrote:
hey, i'm will. new to the forum and i'm looking for some solid advice on aikido. i've been a cop in new orleans for two years and i switched to the state police.

You should among other bits of research check out Robert Koga's stuff.
He has videos too. All of which would help educate you when looking around and evaluating local aikido schools to train with in your area. There is also Bill Sosa's book. The police officers that train with me have some separate concerns that we discuss outside of regular classes.

http://www.kogainst.com/

The Koga Institute is incorporated as a non-profit educational corporation in the State of California, offering training to law enforcement officers, correction and detention officers, and private security.  Incorporated in 1973, the Koga Institute has offered high-quality, no-nonsense training in the use of force (arrest control, self defense, and baton), as well as officer safety.

Koga Sensei has been trained in various traditional martial arts, including Judo, Aikido, Jiu-jitsu, and Kobudo.  During the course of a 25-year law enforcement career, Mr. Koga applied the knowledge he gained to the rigourous demands of law enforcement, developing a humane system of subject control known as "The Koga Method."

The Koga Method is used by many agencies and officers across the United States, and in numerous countries.  The Koga Method originally became popular with the publication of his first book, "The Koga Method: Police Weaponless Control."  Although the first book is now out of print, the Koga Method of Arrest Control has once again made it to press as "Controlling Force: A Primer for Law Enforcement." In the Winter of 1999, the Koga Institute released an additional book on self-defense for law enforcement entitled, "Redirecting Force."

SeiserL 12-29-2004 09:01 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
In almost all martial art systems I have studied there have been LEO who have done great with integrating and applying their training to their work. Several of the LEO I train with now in Aikido have excellent technique and attitude. I think its the attitude and application that matter most here.

BTW, I like Koga stuff too. Seen the tapes. Will check out the books. Ledyard Sensei has a nice package too. Sensei Dye put out a nice series through Panther Tapes. The last two will be at the Aiki Expo 2005 in Los Angeles.

Michael Hackett 12-29-2004 10:39 AM

Re: aikido for police
 
I "talked" to Will by private message and recommended Koga Sensei to him very highly. I second Craig and Lynn's assessment completely. Good stuff!

rookie 12-30-2004 06:53 PM

Re: aikido for police
 
thanks for all of the replies. i appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and opionions. its a hell of a forum.
-will


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