Hi.
I remember a while back people were talking about Aikido in the Olympics with a Tomiki style competition. If I remember right a lot of people were adamantly against the idea of competitive Aikido in the Olympics. But what if (and a big what if, because it will never happen this way) Aikido were treated as a performance art rather than a point by point MA competition? What if you were judged on the grace of your iriminages and the softness of your ukemi? How many people would change their minds about the Olympics? (And would you try to enter?)

I don't think the olympic council is ready to be seduced by an event where the wrinkliest competitor wins.

I was sent a mail about some martial arts world games a few months back by what was apparently the "USA martial arts team." Bizarrely, they're set for Ireland as a venue this year.

andrew

Taigi
 

Sorry Irony but this has already been done. ;)

During the last few years, Koichi Tohei Sensei has devised a Taigi Competition for the Ki Society.

The participants are given point scores just like gymnastics. However their performance is based on timing, grace and other factors. There are top prizes both for nage and uke, since the participants are judged as pairs.

The focus is on cooperation, not competiton, since both uke and nage want to generate as many points as they can for their performance. However a Taigi Competition will have various other prizes such as top single nage and top single uke, top non-black belt taigi team, etc.

In some cases, one class a week is devoted to taigi training in some Ki Society dojos. It seems to be fairly popular, although I really can't say if it's growing in popularity among the Ki Society.

[Edited by tedehara on April 3, 2001 at 06:51pm]

Oh.
 

Didn't know that. Sorry! Strike that! Reverse it!

Does sound interesting, though...

Re: Taigi
 

[quote]tedehara wrote:
[b] Sounds simply FAAB!

Maybe they should try this approach for figure skating also. But, suppose they fall. Heavens forbid! Maybe not then.

This is all so, well, just so dangerous.I just LOVE a soft ukemi - it doesn't even hurt.

Love it.

jim23


[Edited by Jim23 on April 4, 2001 at 08:05am]

In the Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido Friendship Games, as they are now called, there are Embu Kata events where an uke/tori pair are judged in manner similar to diving or skating competitions. There is the Kihon Waza (basic 17 techniques allowed in randori) for Yudansha and Mudansha, the Goshin No Kata (core techniques of the self-defence katas and Shodan exam) for Yudansha, Freestyle Kata (techniques culled from all available kata with and some from elsewhere) and occasionally weapons kata. There are a number of criteria that the judges look to in rating the effectivesnes, realization of principles and style of the presentation. It is very cool and informative to see the different approaches and styles the teams bring to it. Also, in VA last summer a new event was introduced that was called the Improv No Kata, Techniques were pulled out of a hat and the teams had less than a full day before presenting them. Great stuff.

As far as the Olympics goes, the last I heard was that if Osaka got the nod in 2008 there was a very good chance that Shodokan Aikido competitions would be on display as demos. There are people for this and those that are, shall we say, more skeptical.

Cheers,
Karl

WHY NOT COMPETITIONS IN AIKIDO?
 

Hello, All!

I'm against competition not because it's done in this way or that way, judo-like or in a comparative format, as in Taigi.
I'm against it for the same reasons O-Sensei was : "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. "Defeat" means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within".
So, IMHO, it does not matter if we do our competition in a Tomiki Format or in a demonstration format as Ki-Aikido. We are competing, that is, there are rules, judges, a desire to win at all costs (who enters in a competition and do not desire to win?) and there will be winners and losers. The winners will be full of pride and the losers will feel bad. Both will be out of center. Perhaps, Ki-Aikido competitions are worse, since we delude ourselves : "THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION! IT'S A FRIENDLY DEMONSTRATION, WITH NO WINNERS AND NO LOSERS!" Sorry, but there will be winners and losers and it IS a competition.
Also, as in all competitive formats, the art of Aikido will suffer. See judo at Kyuzo Mifune's time and see judo now, after the inclusion of competitions. Judo became a competitive sport, not a martial art. The number of techniques were severely reduced; pure technique has been supplanted by strength; and it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed. I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...The same thing happened in Karate and, in the worst possible way, in Taekwondo.
Sorry, but I believe competition is eminently bad. Let's hope it never happens in Aikido and that it may continue as it is : an art.
Just my 2 cents...
Kami :)

[Edited by Kami on April 4, 2001 at 03:28am]

To pass judgement on aikido being part of the olympics one has to know what exactly the format will be.

As far as I am aware - and I may be
wrong on a few details - is that the format will be a five or seven person team event.

Aikido has to offer something different to judo to be included and therefore must include embu (kata) as part of the event.

Teams will compete against each other for 3 directly competetive events - tanto avoidance, tanto randori, toshu randori. For tanto and toshu randori competitors must be of the same sex.
The embu involves two players from each team and they will perform alongside each other with a judgement made before the next event. I think the embu will include, randori no kata, goshin no kata first eight (suwari waza, hanza handachi waza), goshin no kata second eight (tachi waza) and possibly the nage no kata. The winning team scores the best out of an odd number of events.

I saw this format demonstrated at the International Tomiki Aikido festival in Brisbane and have tried it myself. I found it very enjoyable whilst suitably taxing.

I think that this format would be an excellent spectator event and place the correct amount of emphasis on kata development. This would prevent degeneration of the overall event and art to the situation judo is now in.

I think Karl is right about the 2008 demonstration deadline, but I believe aikido is competing with kendo for the place in the games.

Well spoken Kami - In my opinion Kendo should get in there as part of the olympics since it is one of the most competitive MA I know of. It would however be wonderful with a demonstration of Aikido without ANY aspect of competition. It could direct attention towards Aikido and the difference compared to all the highly competitive sports would be evident to everybody. Regreatably this is not likely to happen. Olympics is not any more a about being part of it - but a matter of winning - winning to promote ones own ego, ones country and ones trainer. Come to think of it it's rather sad.

Aikido online (www.aikidoonline.com) just published the second part of an interview with the doshu where he's asked about competition..

andrew

Re: WHY NOT COMPETITIONS IN AIKIDO?
 

I can understand that you do not want to see competition in your aikido.
I too believe that competition is not suitable for the practice of traditional aikido.

However I strongly object to the suggestion that competition in aikido is morally wrong and that it will somehow harm aikido.

We need to make a distinction between the aikido which Tomiki taught and the aikido O'sensei taught. Fundamentally they are different in practice and philosophy. Only the waza are the same.
Tomiki aikido owes a great deal of its philosophy and the developement of certain waza to Kano Jigoro who had an equal influence to O'sensei on Professor Tomiki.
Therefore I believe that tomiki aikido is not subject to the same moral rules. We have our own guiding beliefs which happen to include randori.

Of course the inclusion of the olympics will lead to a minority of people 'manhandling' the art, but I believe that a true art can withstand this. The embu element is present to exclude this type of developement. If a person seeks to do well, they will be unable to avoid the need for correct technique - as you know it is impossible to do embu if you intend to change what you see to suit yourself - it will no longer be the correct technique.
Even in randori you will only progress if your waza are correct - aikido is not forgiving of modification and has a way of dousing people with big ideas. But you cannot know this unless you do it.

I am trying to justify myself, and maybe I should not. I try to be an open minded preson and that is why I am not upset despite the fact that a lot of people feel free to critise Professor. Tomiki although it would be blasphemous to critise their founder/shihan.
Please dicuss competition, but you have no right to take the moral high ground here.

Re: WHY NOT COMPETITIONS IN AIKIDO?
 

You went to watch this? Did you pay?

Jim23

WHY NOT COMPETITIONS IN AIKIDO?
 

Just because something is done in a competitive event, doesn't make it any easier to do. An average Ki Society taigi is composed of 6 techniques done on both sides, or a total of 12 techniques. You also do more than one taigi. I would rather do a 4 man multi-attack (randori) than be either nage or uke in a taigi. In a randori you are judged by how well you survive the attack. In a taigi, every little movement is scrutinized by a panel of judges.

It's clear from Doshu's online interview that Aikikai isn't having any sort of competition soon. But who's to say that another organization, like Tomiki style, can't have an Olympic Aikido event? It would just showcase their competitive style of Aikido at a higher level. Also, the visibility of the event could help create interest in all styles of Aikido.

Like Kami mentioned, competition has taken over Judo. However, there are also judo groups like Zen Judo which are non-competitive and concentrate on perfecting technique. Perhaps there is also enough room in the world for both a martial art and competitive approach to Aikido.

Re: WHY NOT COMPETITIONS IN AIKIDO?
 

Competition is part and parcel of life. It is linked to one's ego. Only the enlightened masters like O'sensei who have reached that high level of oneness with the universe can truly reject competition. For the rest of us, trying to reject competition is like trying to reject our humanity. The fact is that at our level we can't do it so forcing ourselves not to have competitive thoughts is forcing ourselves to be something we are not. Everything in nature has its good points and bad points and that includes competition. If the competition is done in a positive atmosphere of mutual learning then why not. One final note, the setting of the competition can be a very positive one like Ki Society's taigi competition. Yes, there will be winners but whether there will be any losers really depend on how the individual look at it. Whether the individual will see it like: yes the other competitors did not win but they take with them the valuable experience, the friendships gain in the course of the competition, so no they are not losers. Or like: there must be winners and losers in every competition, if you don't win, you're a LOSER! Well.. it all depends on the individual.

As far as competition being detrimental to Aikido on the fundamental level as Kami has pointed out- is anyone going to say that they've never felt a small amount of competitiveness in the dojo? Did you start aikido with someone and realize later that you were competing, perhaps uncounciously? And even in testing, when perhaps you fail a test and one of your peers passes (or vice versa)? Do you not feel the same thrill of victory or the same defeat of loss? While Kami may be correct in his assement of competition I think that this is something that is not just on the physical level of formal competition, but on the individual's mental state while doing Aikido. Maybe as you improve these feelings of competitiveness fade.

Or maybe I'm just a competitive person. Who knows?

The concern about whether "competition" will corrupt Aikido is difficult to address in these forums because without first hand experience with the Shodokan method and its culture people have a tendency to project all of the failures of competitive events onto it. For instance "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed." Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not.

For the record, I studied "traditional" aikido for years before finding my present teacher/dojo. The main reason I switched was the dramatic difference in the egos and posturing, with the Shodokan stylist being much less ego-driven and, oddly, less competitive. That's just my experience and I am in no way saying this is a global problem/situation.

One of things about having our type of randori is that it gives you the opportunity to face "contest" and measure our aikido and ourselves against it. Now, "the desire to win at all costs" will not get you very far, I assure you. In order to play successfully you have to have a deep and immediate understanding of aikido principles and dynamics. You have to be able to transcend the willingness to win, to "make something happen" and have to find a way allow the aikido to happen.

You also need to be having a good day;^) As part of regular training mudansha get the opportunity to play above their heads and yudansha get to be reminded that rank and history are no match for taking your opponent seriously. You also are provided with an opportunity to face a "won/loss" scenario head on and take it for what it's worth. Wining is not always the best answer or the best teacher and that is definitely re-enforced in my personal experience with the form.

As far as competition never happening, well, too late. Not only are there events in the states and through out the world but there is a particularly virulant strain active across Japanese college campuses.

Concerning the Olympics, Sam, you are correct about Kendo and thanks for reminding me. And let's face it, what sort of chance does Akido Kyogi stand agianst Kendo?

Peace,
Karl

I'm new to this forum, and also to Aikido. But anyway, I pray that there will NEVER be Aikido in the Olympics.

Besides Aikido I also practice Taekwon-do (ITF style). And since Tkd came into the Olympics (even if it's WTF; not the style i practice) Tkd is no longer considered a martial art by many people, but a sport. The day people start competing in Aikido, is the day O'sensei will roll in his grave (as we say in Sweden). There must never be any Aikido competition! I thought O'sensei's thoughts on this subject was one of the basic principles all aikidokas learn in the beginning?

TO BE OR NOT TO BE...
 

Hello, Guys and Gals!

Whatever we may say, this thread raises much interest. But we must try to be as clear as possible about our points. So, let's see :
KAMI (QUOTE) : "I'm against competition not because it's done in this way or that way...I'm against it for the same reasons O-Sensei was : "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. "Defeat" means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within"."

SAM (QUOTE) : "I strongly object to the suggestion that competition in aikido is morally wrong and that it will somehow harm aikido...I try to be an open minded preson and that is why I am not upset despite the fact that a lot of people feel free to critise Professor. Tomiki...Please dicuss competition, but you have no right to take the moral high ground here."

KAMI : (Answer) - Sam, read again my post. There's no moral high ground or accusations that competition is "morally wrong",only that it isn't good based on Aikido principles. Also, no one on this list, up to know, has criticized Tomiki Kenji Sensei. If anyone did, IT WASN'T HERE. We may disagree with Tomiki Kenji's ideas, since he was much more influenced by Kano Jigoro than by Ueshiba Sensei, but that's all. He was a very intelligent man and deserves our respect.
What I did say, following O-Sensei's ideas is that competition is against the better ideas of Aikido, since whenever you have a competition (IN ANY INSTANCES) there are winners and losers. IMHO, Aikido is joy, pleasure and cooperation, not competition.

JIM23 (QUOTE) : "Kami wrote:
I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You went to watch this? Did you pay?
Jim23"

KAMI : (Answers) - No...It was an open event. To talk about something, one needs to watch it, don't you think?

TEDEEHARA (QUOTE) : "Like Kami mentioned, competition has taken over Judo. However, there are also judo groups like Zen Judo which are non-competitive and concentrate on perfecting technique. Perhaps there is also enough room in the world for both a martial art and competitive approach to Aikido."

KAMI : There isn't, I'm sorry! The Kano Society, the Zen Judo group and a few others, are small islands in the middle of a vast ocean of competition. Competition has the money, the propaganda and the media. How many people in the world ever heard about the Kano Society? Remember that even today many people gets surprised when they hear that Aikido (for the most part) has no competition. "What, no competitions?"

KELVIN (QUOTE) : "Competition is part and parcel of life. It is linked to one's ego. Only the enlightened masters like O'sensei who have reached that high level of oneness with the universe can truly reject competition. For the rest of us, trying to reject competition is like trying to reject our humanity."

KAMI : (Answers) - Death is a part of life and everybody fights against it. Disease is a part of life but everybody tries to avoid it and if they get sick they try to overcome it. Impatience, anger and violence are a part of some people's natures but to live in society we have to fight against it.
The fact that competition (in a violently competitive society in capitalism) is a part of our lives isn't a reason for us to aplaud competition and promote it. I think that quite on the contrary...

IRONY (QUOTE) : "While Kami may be correct in his assessment of competition I think that this is something that is not just on the physical level of formal competition, but on the individual's mental state while doing Aikido."

KAMI : (Answers) - I think that competition enhances and promotes the competitive spirit. The "Individual's mental state" is heavily competitive and agressive or nothing else. "To compete, not to win" is an impossibility

KARL KUHN (QUOTE) : "The concern about whether "competition" will corrupt Aikido is difficult to address in these forums because without first hand experience with the Shodokan method and its culture people have a tendency to project all of the failures of competitive events onto it. For instance "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed." Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not."

KAMI : (Answers) - Sorry, Karl, but "I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced". You don't know me but you claim that I have no experience about Tomiki Aikido. I have and my son has even participated as an invited guest in Tomiki competition. I talk about what I know and what I know is that I saw too many inflated egos in TA. I respect Tomiki Aikido practitioners that enjoy competition. To each his own. But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold. There are many Tomiki dojo that do not participate in competition and quite a few offshoots (Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai...) that have abandoned it. Toshu Randori was abandoned after some time and Tanto Randori was the most practiced format. Now I heard that Toshu Randori is being studied again for competition. In Tomiki Aikido competition, the good techniques are rare and are usually seen in the higher grades and it seems the greater part of the competitors are universities's students. Anyway, I do not pontificate on Tomiki Aikido. They have their own organization and their own practitioners. If they choose to have competitions, it's their own concern, not mine. I talk only about non-competitive styles, if they choose to hear me. I have talked long with Peter Goldsbury, Chairman of the International Aikido Federation about this topic. Just as the Doshu (Aikikai), he doesn't like the idea but he's getting some return from Aikikai people.
Finally, the fact that there's competition (in a small scale) in Tomiki and Ki-Aikido (and in an even smaller scale in Yoshinkan) is no indication of the future for Aikido. For my part, I sincerely hope, for the reasons I explained (and not for "moral" reasons), that it will not come to pass.
Best regards and a good, non-competitive, Keiko :)

So that's sorted that out then!

Which style is it that they're proposing for the Olympics? If it's one where there's already competition, will this adversely affect other styles? Does anyone know how the competition would be judged? Can we have a few facts?

(If - as mentioned earlier - aikido is up against kendo for a place, wouldn't it be more likely that the shouty one gets chosen? If memory serves they showcased kendo at the Seoul Olympics - and very good it was too!)

JIM23 (QUOTE) : "Kami wrote:
I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You went to watch this? Did you pay?
Jim23"

KAMI : (Answers) - No...It was an open event. To talk about something, one needs to watch it, don't you think?

Kami,

Not necessarily. Anyway, I apologise if my sarcasm didn't translate well.

Jim23

COMPETITION IN AIKIDO
 

KAMI : Hey, Man! No harm done...This is a discussion board for mature people. I didn't take it bad, I answered also in jest...
Best

Re: TO BE OR NOT TO BE...
 

Well exactly how much experience do you have? Both Karl and I have extensive experience in Shodokan and you seem to be describing something that we are unfamiliar with. Based on what I've seen in non-competitive dojos the source of rampant egos has little to do with competition.

Quote:

But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold. There are many Tomiki dojo that do not participate in competition and quite a few offshoots (Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai...) that have abandoned it. Toshu Randori was abandoned after some time and Tanto Randori was the most practiced format. Now I heard that Toshu Randori is being studied again for competition. In Tomiki Aikido competition, the good techniques are rare and are usually seen in the higher grades and it seems the greater part of the competitors are universities's students.

Really - the size of the International events grows each and every time they are held. True, there are dojos and members that do not compete, it is not a requirement and why should it be. The vast majority of Tomiki practioners belong to organizations which participate in competions. The shiai is there to test your Aikido if you want to. It is not easy and not for everybody. However, probably the best tanto randori player in the US is over 50, the winner of the US nationals (a Brit) is 40. At Virginia last summer the range of competitors went from early 20s to mid-50s, I am 39 and compete (not well mind you) and Karl, he is no spring chicken but does pretty good. If college age is the 18-23 crowd they were in the minority. In Japan there is a huge influx of college students (just like any University Aikido dojo) but you go to Honbu you see a very even distribution from 17 to 77. Tanto and Toshu - I forwarded a letter to you from a senior Honbu instructor with respect to your question - seems you ignore or twist things that don't fit your theory. Good techniques are rare - well that's the whole point. Those who compete learn very quickly how difficult it is to pull off techniques which look good in a dojo. Its a real ego destroyer to discover your Aikido is not as hot as you thought and if your good you take home the lessons learnt and apply it to all your Aikido.

Quote:

Anyway, I do not pontificate on Tomiki Aikido.

Sorry Ubaldo that is exactly what you are doing. Excuse my frustration but my reaction is constantly - where does he get this stuff. I suggest you have far less experience of Shodokan than you think or at the very least your prejudices are clouding your vision.

I have given up trying to explain to you, you have your ideas, but it is very hard for me to sit still and not counter. Each and every point you raise has been answered before and its like water off a duck's back. I am not after converts to Shodokan but I would rather people be exposed to an informed source.

Ubaldo,

Be careful, Peter is from Quebec (near Canada), even the Canadians handle them carefully!;)

<YOWEEE!!! Darn, on my back again. Those Tomiki guys are so fine. Easy on the wrist! Ouch!>

I don't do TA, but lots of respect though.

Jim23

Re: Re: TO BE OR NOT TO BE...
 

KAMI : Sorry to hear that, Peter. And I don't think "each and every point" I made "has been answered before". And your last point worries me. It might be construed to mean that only an elite of experts could write in this Forum about anything. Remember, Peter, I asked questions and presented doubts and opinions. My small experience with Shodokan has been in two states and in two different lines. I presented what I saw there. Everybody was free to disagree and write in response (even you). I always answered everyone and unlike you I never questioned anyone's degree of knowledge. This is a free forum, Peter, and everybody is welcome to write and got answers. That's all. If you can't convince others, so what? Perhaps you could explain things a little better, perhaps you have no time to explain things to people you believe are dishonest in his positions ("someone that ignores or twist things that don't fit their theory").
But just saying they are dishonest, is not answering them.
Sincerely sorry for your outburst
Kami

P.S. Also it should be remembered, Peter, that to have an extensive knowledge of things (as you and Karl) does not mean to be above making mistakes. Everybody, including this friend of yours, makes them...

PETER'S WRATH
 

KAMI : Dear Jim,
Have no fear...Peter is hot-tempered but an educated and nice guy from the little I have known of him.
And do not misunderstood me :
a) I have much respect for Kenji Tomiki Sensei, one of the greatest aikido masters;
b) I respect Tomiki Aikido and its practitioners; and
c) my questions are never intended to insult or bring demerit on Shodokan. It's just that there are some things I question, some things I don't like and some things I disagree. It's my hope, nonetheless, that Shodokan practitioners won't take that as a personal offense, which it isn't.
Good keiko