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AikiWeb System 11-14-2004 12:30 AM

Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 14, 2004:

Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Nage
  • Uke
Here are the current results.

ruthmc 11-14-2004 04:22 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Can I say it depends upon the relative abilities of the uke and nage concerned? ;)

Ruth

MaryKaye 11-14-2004 07:52 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I don't think this question is answerable. It reminds me of "Who determines what opening is played in a chess game--White or Black?"

Across a big enough skill difference the answer always seems to be "The more skilled person controls the outcome." If I am training with a fourth dan, my partner can determine how the throw works out (or doesn't) no matter whether I'm uke or nage.

Between people on my level...I don't think either participant necessarily controls the outcome. Partner zigs, I zag, something emerges from that interaction. Sometimes it's recognizably more one person's intention than the other's--hopefully that person is nage more often than not--but frequently it's all interaction.

Mary Kaye

Kevin Leavitt 11-14-2004 10:22 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I agree. It is unanswerable. Nage wants it in his favor, likewise, Uke wants it in her favor. Winning means someone loses. I'd like to think that there is a way for both to win, middle of the road resolution.

SeiserL 11-14-2004 01:46 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
IMHO, like most things in life, the outcome is best determined by the intent and intensity of the training and the willingness to do whatever it takes.

Or is this a Zen Koan? KWATZ!

Or, Kamisama does.

Or, actually, in class, Sensei does by telling us what to practice.

Or, none of the above.

Or, all of the above including none of the above.

Robert Jackson 11-14-2004 05:42 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I agree it's an unanswerable question. In a perfect world it would a balance between both uke and nage... both blending... balance a nice thing... In a real situation I think it's more of responibilty of the nage to make the throw work... if it one doesn't work then you must do something else.... in turn hanka or oyo waza... but in this case the out is still not what either the nage or uke were going for...

Rupert Atkinson 11-14-2004 10:35 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I don't think it is un-answerable. I started Aikido in the UK and was trained to believe uke falls where uke wants to go - in the direction of their attack etc. But in Japan, my Sensei would make everyone fall exactly where he wanted them to fall, thus he could make it look like even a beginner was a good uke - he actually forced his beginners to go where he wanted them to. Sure it hurt a bit, but uke soon learns where to go! I have seen several Sensei do this and have now changed my outlook - I think both perspectives are OK. Accordingly, you have choice - you can let uke fall where they will (uke decides, kind of), or, you can make them go where you want them to go (tori decides). Thus, in training, you shouldn't have one without the other - both are options.

For example, on the top of a flat-roofed building, knife-weilding madman rushes, you duck, over he goes - it was uke's choice. Same situation but it's your brother, you do irimi-iriminage and send him back onto the concrete - it was your choice.

And if both options are available, then mixing them together mid-technique is possible - inevitable even.

L. Camejo 11-14-2004 10:43 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Quote:

AikiWeb System wrote:
Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Answer: Tori/Nage. The particular technique or variation used may result from some movement/reaction done by Uke, giving Uke an aspect in determining what technique may manifest itself, but by the time the technique is manifested the Tori is supposed to be in total control of Uke and as a result determines the final outcome of the technique.

Just my take.
LC:ai::ki:

maikerus 11-14-2004 10:56 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I disagree...the question is answerable and shouldn't be ambiguous.

Shite makes the choices based upon the balance and timing of shite and uke together. Yes...it takes two people to make a technique, but that technique is guided and controlled by shite (or should be) right from the beginning.

Mary's point about the more experienced person controlling the outcome is very valid. But in this case my argument would be that even if they are in the uke's role while controlling the outcome they are actually doing the technique...therefore being shite. It's just that their choice is to fall or to be pinned or whatever.

--Michael

Nafis Zahir 11-15-2004 12:22 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
The answer is uke! Why? Because the uke's response will dictate the outcome. If the uke or attacker, receives the technique, relaxes, and "gives it up", then the result will be a nice roll, and easy breakfall, or a "calm" meeting with the mat, which ends in a pin. But if not, then the results will not be nice. 9 weeks ago, I suffered a partially torn ligament in my right elbow. The nage was very apologetic and upset that I got hurt. But, I had to be honest and tell him that it was really my fault. Who was responsible for the outcome? The uke! Why? Because we were doing Shihonage, I wasn't moving, was very flat-footed, and my arm wasn't even tense to signal that I might not be ready. I was in a "lull." When the nage started to do the technique, I suddenly realized I wasn't keeping up and that I was flat-footed (something my Sensei had warned me about before). I tried to catch up by "leaping" at the last second, but he had already turned his hip and started the cut. Nevertheless, there was a loud "pop" and now I'm in therapy. No matter what the technique, if the uke doesn't do what they are suppose to do, then the outcome won't be good.

ian 11-15-2004 07:49 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Nage blends with uke, not the other way around, so surely uke determines the outcome?! (By outcome I mean the type of response rather than success).

I think with BEGINNERS the more skilled person determines the outcome, whilst with advanced practitioners uke determines the type of response.

I remember I was having problems with students 'jumping' when I was tryng to do a technique on them and a senior instructor told me something very useful - you just have to work with what they give you. Therefore, if people jump now I let them, and don't try to physically stop them of force them down harder.

Based on his quotes I would say Ueshiba didn't believe that he himself decided the outcome of the altercation:

"Whenever I am attacked, I have no attachment to life or death. I leave everything as it is to the spirit of the universe. Be apart from attachment to life and death and have a mind that leaves everything to that spirit, not only when you are being attacked but also in your daily lives."

Can we really be like that if we are 'determining' the outcome?

JMCavazos 11-15-2004 09:55 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
I think the outcome is determined by the nage.

If nage is skilled, he surely determines how & where & why, etc... If uke resists, he may go to something else in the aikido aresenal, but it is nage who determines.

If the nage is not skilled, the determination is still nage's. Uke may resist or help nage finish the technique but it is nage's will or fault that the technique ended up where it did. In other words, a non skilled nage may determine to abandon the technique early or to abandon technique altogether. His next determination should be to find out how to make technique work more effectively.

Uke is a wiling partner who really should determine nothing. Uke should go wherever nage takes him/her. Uke may offer resistance to help nage find out something about himself, but the determination of the technique should always be nage.

At least that is what I think.

jgros 11-15-2004 02:47 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
unanswerable. definately.

Becuase the uke/nage may be more skilled than the other? sure. why not. ill accept that.

But I see it this way. If uke doesnt attack then the technique isnt done. Therefore he controls the technique. HOWEVER. If we are classiflying the uke by his "lethal intent" versus whether he actually attacks.....Then the nage could attack the uke because he knows that he must strike before stricken first. And then the uke responds, nage then responds and throws the uke.

So if you are saying that definately the uke will attack, or definately the nage will wait until attacked....the ill say that it boils down to the skill (and how nice each person is :)) of each party involved.

Either way, its still definately unanswerable! :p

jgros

Alfonso 11-15-2004 03:31 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
this is in context right now in my class, and my current understanding is

Uke: a highly skilled uke can reverse any technique as soon as Nage attempts it, and Nage can reverse the reversal , but at that point Nage is Uke since uke receives.., and past that point its back to Nage, since Nage is putting out..

when can we dispense with Uke/Nage?

maikerus 11-15-2004 10:15 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
It's interesting that there seem to be many different definitions of what "outcome" means.

1. Which technique is done (this was what I thought when reading the poll question)
2. Whether uke gets hurt or not
3. Where uke falls
4. Shite/Nage successful at throwing/controlling uke
5. What the initial response is to uke (and whether technique necessary or not) based on attack

I'm not sure if that accurately sums up everything that has been said, but it is certainly interesting that the same word means so many different things to different people.

After looking over the list I still think that it is shite that is in control of the situation and determines the outcome.

1. Shite does the technique shite feels is right. The exact same attack probably will produce a different final technique from different shite's because different people are better at different techniques
2. Shite should be responsible for feel how close uke is to be getting hurt and respond accordingly. I know that some dojos fail someone without a question if any uke are hurt during a test.
3. Techniques are about guiding uke to where you want to put them. Even if that place is the same place they would fall if you just ducked...you chose to put them there (or allow them to go there) and not someplace else
4. Whoever controls the technique becomes, by defination, I think, Shite. So whomever throws/controls the other is shite and sets the outcome.
5. If shite chooses not to block the attack...they'll get hit in the head. Their choice. If they block and move the attack, they move with what is natural to them. Two people may respond different to the exact same attack.

Interesting poll. But after thinking it over again, I don't think it should be so ambiguous. Talk of blending and being the center of the universe as a cohensive whole of two Aikidoka is all great, but in the end something happens based on your experience, technique and the person who determines what that outcome is is the person who is, ultimately, in control of the technique and by definition gets the title of shite (or nage...if you will).

It is a bit of a chicken and the egg argument, but even that one should be unambiguous...with a little thought ;)

Just my humble opinion,

--Michael

-

Neil Mick 11-15-2004 11:53 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
Sensei does by telling us what to practice.

This was my gut response. I thought about this for a week, and I found I couldn't answer the survey. :hypno:

James Giles 11-16-2004 01:56 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
this is in context right now in my class, and my current understanding is

Uke: a highly skilled uke can reverse any technique as soon as Nage attempts it, and Nage can reverse the reversal , but at that point Nage is Uke since uke receives.., and past that point its back to Nage, since Nage is putting out..

when can we dispense with Uke/Nage?

I agree with this. It really boils down to how do you define uke or how do you define nage. I mean, when "uke" attacks, he/she has every intention of being a "nage" him/her self. He/she wants to make an uke out of the nage.

And then you have the reversals that can happen when one partner uses too much strength etc., so the roles of uke/nage are being switched around during these episodes.

I suppose whomever lands on the mat is really the uke, whether he/she started out that way or not, and I agree with a previous poster that uke (the one that hits the mat), is the one that resolves the conflict through his ukemi; by escaping unharmed.

Lachlan Kadick 11-16-2004 03:56 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
while Uke does require ability, it ultimately should be Nage that determines that outcome of the technique, since Nage is the thrower. The nage must execute the technique, even with the uke's challenging movement.

ian 11-17-2004 08:15 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Quote:

Joe Cavazos wrote:
...Uke should go wherever nage takes him/her...

I think there is a big difference between doing aikido and learning to do techniques. I think what is expressed by many is the compliance of uke in learning to do a technique. Sensei tells nage what will be done and nage and uke do it. However in my mind this is only the first stage of aikido. Effective aikido is learnt when nage blends and is responsive to uke's movement. i.e. there is a freestyle situation and uke attacks, and nage has to respond appropriately and with blending. This is more realistic - an attacker will NOT go where you lead them in a real situation; nage has to fit in with uke in these cases.

JMCavazos 11-17-2004 01:11 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Ian Wrote:
Quote:

Effective aikido is learnt when nage blends and is responsive to uke's movement
Exactly: Nage determines the outcome! This is exactly what I was trying to say in the context of the question.

Thanks

rogerw 11-19-2004 08:07 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Uke is the one that decide if there is a technique; does he or doesn't he attack?
At the moment uke takes the decision to attack, nage is the one who determines the outcoming of the attack; the fight is already over.

roninja 11-19-2004 09:38 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
done properly uke gives the input where as nage decides where to take it or what to do with it, ultimately deciding the outcome. unless you get into a situation where uke either takes the falls or resists in which case uke determined whether or not he or she would be injured :ai: :ki: :do:
but then again, I'm an idiot when it comes to aikido and the only thing that determines the outcome of my techniques is kata

Amendes 11-19-2004 12:59 PM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
In a quick randori situation there ideally is no determination. At lest for me; because I can't think fast enough, just react. I find I do certain techniques more often, like shihonage. Not because I determine to, but because that is what I have taken favoritism too and had my muscles memorize to do automatically the most. If I try to do something else, and think, I usually lose my ability to do the techniques effectively. So what ever comes out, and where ever it flows.
Sometimes is nikyo, sometimes kaitennage. But when it comes out, it comes the way it flows.

Mark Uttech 11-20-2004 08:29 AM

Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
 
Uke initates the technique with an attack... A true attack is a continuous attack, (in other words, uke is not just going to stand there and be manhandled),so.... Nage responds to uke and keeps responding to uke, so therefore uke determines the outcome.


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