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Gabriel A 11-04-2004 09:04 AM

Lineage
 
HI, I have problems understanding the lineage of aikido. What I mean by this who were O sensei's students? where did they go ? Also who are the top ranking or famous aikidoka? And so on... I know this isn't a interesting question, but I feel I need this background info to understand some posts, for example "Who's your favorite akidoka?"

.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?

Regards to all

Yann Golanski 11-04-2004 09:33 AM

Re: Lineage
 
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>

Yokaze 11-04-2004 11:02 AM

Re: Lineage
 
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

akiy 11-04-2004 11:10 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Here's a page with some of the founder's uchideshi:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/1419/Deshi.htm

-- Jun

Greg Jennings 11-04-2004 12:04 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Rob Cunningham wrote:
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

suren 11-04-2004 01:01 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

Yes and currently Hiroshi Isoyama is Dojo Cho in Iwama.

Zato Ichi 11-04-2004 04:51 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>

You forgot the root element, Yann.

Janet Rosen 11-04-2004 05:57 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">

Yann, nicely done!!! my aikigiggle of the day and sorely needed.

Joe Bowen 11-04-2004 07:46 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Rob Cunningham wrote:
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain. After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility, came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications). Many factions and fragments within Aikido and even within the Aikikai.
Lineage is only as important as you make it. There are some wack jobs out there that are just making stuff up. If you think they are not credible ask about their lineage. You can check that out. Don't attack it, or you might find yourself in a fight (especially if these guys reallly are whackos). Whether or not one Uchideshi of O Sensei's is better than the other is a subjective thing. Use your best judgement.

Joe

Yann Golanski 11-05-2004 02:48 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Haruo-san, Janet,

Glad to be of service. As for the root, when Jun wants all the posts to be XML complient, I will be happy to offer some suggestions! Now, that would be scary: a XML descriptio of Aikido.

*flees before he is lynched by a mob of angry aikidoka*

batemanb 11-05-2004 03:00 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Stan Pranin over at www.aikidojournal.com has also produced a colour poster listing the principal disciples of O Sensei.

Here`s the sample, you will need to buy it to see it full size.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/.../ch01_full.jpg

rgds

Bryan

Greg Jennings 11-05-2004 06:50 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Joseph Bowen wrote:
Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo.

Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgement on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

Quote:

Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain.
You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.

Quote:

After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility,
My understanding is that the Ueshiba family did retain ownership.

Quote:

came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications).
That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .

Best regards,

Kevin Masters 11-05-2004 07:09 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?
According to the archives Jun is really a professional wrestler:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=wrestler
:)
with a very quiet breakfall:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=85

Kev.

Joe Bowen 11-07-2004 10:47 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgment on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.


Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.

Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.

Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .

I've read the post. I've read the letter. Japanese society is too polite to come right out and say what's going on. So, here's my take. No disrespect intended to any parties involved. M.Saito Sensei died. H.Saito Sensei obviously, and probably not unreasonably so, expected to inherit the legacy of his father, along with the Iwama dojo cho. Since he was probably acting in that capacity while his father was still alive, that seems a reasonable expectation. However, in the Iwama area, you have at least one, and probably more, folks that had been doing Aikido before H.Saito Sensei was born. Isoyama Sensei, who is currently running Iwama dojo, is a 8th Dan, deshi of Iwama from back when O Sensei was there.
Would it be unreasonable, to turn the dojo over to a 5th Dan, (as I believe that was H.Saito Sensei rank when his father died) when you have an 8th Dan willing to assume the position? Not really. Many people talk about conspiracies to oust M.Saito Sensei, and how several folks were looking to usurp the Iwama Dojo from the Saito Family. Nonsense. Don't look past the obvious. If you're the one in charge, even with the family inheritance tradition in Japan, do you choose a 5th Dan over an 8th Dan? You'll probably tell me I'm "over-simplifying". And in a sense your right. But, the Saito family still cares for the Aiki-shrine that's probably the proper responsibility to be inherited.


Joe

deepsoup 11-08-2004 04:27 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

I'm pretty sure I would be.

Greg Jennings 11-08-2004 06:56 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Sean Orchard wrote:
I'm pretty sure I would be.

Maybe, maybe not. Kisshomaru Doshu was the person behind the "opening" of aikido. He was the one with the organizational and administrative skills.

I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings 11-08-2004 07:32 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Joseph Bowen wrote:
This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.

I know that he built the old Hombu dojo. I know that he taught there (that's glossing right there). But, I submit that he was not the primary (or even secondary) force behind the administration of the dojo, or the pedagogical direction. I've talked 1v1 with people that were there at the time and have no reason to doubt what they say.



Quote:

Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.
Gosh, I believe that if you'll read my posts, you'll see that I've never been in the "Saito Sensei is the teacher of the One True Way" camp. Sure, I train that way as much as I'm able and, yeah, it appears to work for me. I have never made an assertion past that.

But, if you want to understand why the situation that we currently have, with TWO aikido dojo in Iwama almost across the street from each other came about, you, IMHO, only have one foot in the boat.

Quote:

So, here's my take. <snip>
I think you have a good measure of it, but, from my sources, Hitohiro wanting to continue supporting Iwama Ryu was the real deal breaker.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale 11-08-2004 08:29 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

As much as I respect the Aikikai organization and the Ueshiba family, nah, I don't think so. Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization did and does quite well. And having a Japanese 7th dan in your home town trumps the founder's son in Tokyo, in my personal experience. No disrespect, just the way it was for me.

Ron

deepsoup 11-08-2004 08:59 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

Greg Jennings wrote:
I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

I'm in Shodokan, and with all due respect to Ueshiba K., I really dont think so.

Sean
x

Gabriel A 11-08-2004 09:52 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Hi, thanx to all for your responses... sorry for taking so long I was away for the weekend.

Jun, thanx for the links.... by the way, why did you quit? how did you come upon aikido?
Pls note that my question are bades on curiosity and not on disrespect.
Regards to all

Ron Tisdale 11-08-2004 10:35 AM

Re: Lineage
 
Quote:

why did you quit?
Wrestling? He never wrestled 'professionally' that I know of...he has the same name as a professional wrestler, so we like to kid him about it. Hard to tell if you are new here. :)

Ron (he'll have to say how he found aikido...)

Gabriel A 11-08-2004 10:39 AM

Re: Lineage
 
OHhhh ... so the wrestling is a "joke" ?

Gabriel A 11-08-2004 02:16 PM

Re: Lineage
 
By the way , Hi Ron how are you doing? Hope all is well!!
Regards Gabriel

MikeE 11-08-2004 02:34 PM

Re: Lineage
 
Huh. Coming originally from Aikikai and now in a Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido lineaged style...I never thought of thanking Ueshiba K. for helping make Tohei K. head off away from the Aikikai ;)

Greg Jennings 11-08-2004 02:40 PM

Re: Lineage
 
My thought is that the popularization provided by the Aikikai was needed to provide the critical mass that aikido needed to propagate in a significant way.

Organizational lines, points in history of diversation, etc, don't factor in.

But, hey, maybe I've been delving too much into Chaos lately.

Best,


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