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-   -   Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6646)

AikiWeb System 10-10-2004 12:30 AM

Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 10, 2004:

Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

ruthmc 10-10-2004 06:56 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
In a word - Yonkyo!

Ruth

L. Camejo 10-10-2004 08:23 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Was it Wally Jay of Small Circle Jujutsu who said - Pain makes believers of 'em all. ???

One should reserve the right to make certain Ukes see stars imo.:)

I voted No though.:p

LC:ai::ki:

Clayton Kale 10-10-2004 08:40 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I voted yes because in most cases a joint lock just isn't a joint lock if it doesn't sting. That's not to say I (or anyone in my dojo for that matter) enjoy inflicting pain. Like the last poll discussion said, there's pain, and then there's :uch: pain :uch: .

maikerus 10-10-2004 07:05 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I would say its inevitable.

I think everyone agrees that there are better ways to do techniques than to use pain. The best techniques are ones where uke feels nothing until they splat on the mat.

However, that being said, I don't think that you can get to that point with any technique without first going through the "me give pain" stage. For one thing, until you know where the threshold of pain starts during a technique, you can't avoid it.

This is, I feel, especially true in people who have been training for maybe a year or two, they probably haven't developed the feedback sense to know how much pressure and/or pain they are inflicting. This is the reason 3rd/4th kyu's are so difficult to train with. They've got the strength and some technique, but usually not the sense of uke that's needed to judge how strong they are applying the technique.

With apologies to the 3rd/4th kyu's out there who this doesn't apply too...

--Michael

ruthmc 10-11-2004 10:25 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Quote:

Michael Stuempel wrote:
This is, I feel, especially true in people who have been training for maybe a year or two, they probably haven't developed the feedback sense to know how much pressure and/or pain they are inflicting. This is the reason 3rd/4th kyu's are so difficult to train with. They've got the strength and some technique, but usually not the sense of uke that's needed to judge how strong they are applying the technique.

With apologies to the 3rd/4th kyu's out there who this doesn't apply to...

:) In my experience it's not just 3rd/4th kyu students this applies to...

No apologies necessary!

Ruth

Charles Bergman 10-12-2004 12:16 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
[quote=Michael Stuempel]I would say its inevitable.

However, that being said, I don't think that you can get to that point with any technique without first going through the "me give pain" stage. For one thing, until you know where the threshold of pain starts during a technique, you can't avoid it.

I voted "yes" following the same logic in my response to the poll question last week.

No one walks into the dojo their first week (or month, or even year for that matter) and performs every techinque perfectly. Doing the technique wrong usually results in pain. This applies both to doing and receiving the technique. It also applies to learning how to roll, etc.

Therefore, while you are learning, and getting better, you are going to both receive and inflict pain for a while, even though inflicting pain isn't the objective.

Chuck
:ai: :ki: :do:

billybob 10-12-2004 12:44 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Quote:

I think everyone agrees that there are better ways to do techniques than to use pain. The best techniques are ones where uke feels nothing until they splat on the mat.

hear hear. well said. y'all are right though, sometimes it hurts. i answered 'no' cuz, as phrased the question seems a little perverse.

billybob

MaryKaye 10-12-2004 01:56 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I voted "no" but now I'm not sure.

I figured that a sufficiently more-skilled partner, coupled with a careful student, could avoid inflicting pain on the skilled partner while still allowinng the student to learn. But on consideration, I have hurt my fourth-dan sensei once or twice by accident, usually with koteoroshi or nikyo. I think I'd now say that there comes a point where you must risk inflicting pain in order to progress.

I don't believe it's necessary to deliberately inflict pain. I wouldn't regard someone whose aikido was otherwise excellent, but who didn't practice pain-causing versions of the wrist controls, as "not an aikidoka." Conversely, I wouldn't regard someone who learned and used the pain-inflicting versions as "not an aikidoka." It's a choice.

As soon as you put two equal-rank novices together as partners, some pain's going to be given and received, and there's not much to do about it but try to treat uke compassionately. (And I'm getting more and more convinced that, because of individual variation in pain tolerance and injury vulnerability, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is not a good guide to the specifics.)

Mary Kaye

maikerus 10-12-2004 05:10 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Quote:

Mary Kuhner wrote:
As soon as you put two equal-rank novices together as partners, some pain's going to be given and received, and there's not much to do about it but try to treat uke compassionately. (And I'm getting more and more convinced that, because of individual variation in pain tolerance and injury vulnerability, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is not a good guide to the specifics.)

What about "do unto others so they can't get up to do unto you?" :straightf

Seriously...it's a good point. Partners have to somehow let each other know what they're feeling in terms of balance, pain and overall technique. Feedback is one of the best ways to get better and since uke's vary its important to get some sort of feedback from various ukes.

raul rodrigo 10-12-2004 06:59 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I voted yes because causing pain in joint locks and nerve hits like yonkyo is a basic part of what we do. We don't enjoy it and we don't do it indiscriminately, but there it is. I have undergone a lot of sloppy locks from aikidoka over the years, people just going through the motions. So I really appreciate a training partner who can cause me pain and vice versa, so that we skirt the edge of each other's vulnerability; there's a real connection there, and respect. Its an important part of what I understand aikido to be.

rogerw 10-14-2004 11:27 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Inducing pain to uke may be necessary to test the limits of the way we use the technique (not the technique itself because it is limitless). Nage (Tori) must soon go over this test and try to induce as less pain as possible to his uke(s). A master should never be felt.

Roger C. Marks 10-15-2004 06:52 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I believe pain is inevitable rather than necessary when studying aikido. I answered 'no' because theoretically it would be possible to get 'better' without experiencing pain but maybe not as 'better' as you would become by experiencing pain! But this is all hypothetical as I cannot conceive of any aikido paradigm not including pain.

MadMyndi 10-15-2004 11:44 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I think it's important to distinguish between discomfort and pain. I expect discomfort in Aikido; it doesn't feel good, and I don't want to fight it because it could become pain if I fight it, but I'm not hurt, either. Pain, for me, is the point where discomfort becomes dehabilitating; I can not fight it, I can not work through it, and I just want it to stop. Pain is the point where I get injured.

I think that it's inevitable, and even necessary, that a person will experience discomfort in Aikido, and will cause it in others. It enhances understanding of why a technique works.

There are occasions when pain in likely, when a person starts to gain speed, and is adjusting for the speed.

But I do not think that pain is necessary.

Melissa Fischer 10-16-2004 12:38 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Seems to me threat of pain is OK and discomfort is OK, but injury pain on purpose is counter to the spirit of Aiki. If I pin someone in Nikyo and they bounce up out of it, they'll be hurting themselves.If i throw someone into kotegaeshi who doesn't have a clue as to the Ukemi, they'll get hurt.I need to be more sensitive, they need to get better at Ukemi.I guess that's why we study Ukemi half the time we're on the mat.
There are probably people around who purposely throw and pin with more than "minimum force". If it's lack of skill, it'll go away with helpful feedback and more training, if it's intentional, they'll likely have trouble finding a dojo to train in.
I am currently icing a bruised knuckle as I often do after the adv. weapons class.I could minimize the possibility of pain by not going to adv.weapons, or I could assume the risk, call it the price of getting better and hope to improve before I lose all use of both hands. I know which I choose.

Melissa

"Pain is weakness leaving the body" US Marine Corps

Charles Hill 10-16-2004 01:07 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I say no, due completely to semantics. Ideal Aikido practice, in my opinion, is two people working together with full concent. As tori, I do not "induce" pain in my partner, together we create that pain. If my partner is not a willing participant in the creation of pain, discomfort, or whatever, then it is not aikido, in my opinion.

Charles Hill

maikerus 10-18-2004 12:27 AM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
As tori, I do not "induce" pain in my partner, together we create that pain. If my partner is not a willing participant in the creation of pain, discomfort, or whatever, then it is not aikido, in my opinion.

I love this. What a great way to say it.

I can't wait to use this on my students next time they are writhing in pain as they splat to the mat. Maybe I'll use it as an excuse to grow the pain together to new and higher heights!

I kid! I kid! :crazy: Jeez...it was just a joke. :D

Seriously, it is a good way to say that training is mutual and that we need to expect it in our training (no matter what the poll results say).

cheers,

--Michael

Berney Fulcher 03-10-2005 02:27 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
I know this is an old poll, but I got really confused on this one...

A lot of people are saying there is no pain when a Nikyo is applied, especially when done by a master? How do the two relate? I'm only 4th Kyu here, but I seem to be being taught to slap out when the pain happens, not at the threat of it happening.

Any clarifications here?

pezalinski 03-10-2005 03:38 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
You are being taught to protect yourself from injury -- and pain thresholds are one of the ways your body tells you that you are being injured, and it could get worse so do something about it. (A horrible snapping noise is another).

Tapping out is a good thing to have in your set of skills -- I personally recommend learning to tap with every limb...I've been known to flop like a fish on occasion :p (I think it started when I made the mistake of rolling over and trapping my free hand under my body -- not a bright move, by the way) .

All of the joint locks are painful -- it is the pain, or threat of pain, that prevents you from getting up and attacking again. Some of the pins are functional, rather than painful -- you literally cannot move, although you are not currently in pain. The Nikkyu and Ikkyu style pins can be like this. Also, you can practice aikido without using joint locks -- performing kokyuho or kokyunage techniques, and throwing your partner to the mat rather than trying to control them and pin them.

As for Nikkyo (the lock, not the pin) not being painful when applied by the "masters," IMHO, some one has been feeding you bullpucky. You can apply Nikkyo in a way that it is not immediately painful -- but then you are not applying any pressure on the lock, and it serves no purpose -- you may as well perform ikkyo.
I have felt Nikkyo put on my wrist in such a way that my resistance to it was what caused the pain -- and it's pain and the threat of more pain that motivates uke not to attack further. But it still hurts.

Lachlan Kadick 03-10-2005 08:27 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
no pain no gain... but Aikido isn't about gain now is it? it's just about what is already there and moving with that. I agree that pain will happen, but it isn't necessary, necessarily.

McConnell 03-11-2005 05:57 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
You need to experience pain to move ahead. Experiencing pain (e.g. from a nikyo, etc) offers you a different perspective of what Aikido can do. Pain doesn't necessarily equate with injury. Be even though you'll have to accept that practicing Aikido you will get injuried on a small scale (e.g. small bruises from ukemi falls necessitating improving your ukemis, or getting bruised in a fashioned that so that the Nage can learn - e.g Iriminage)....when you apply a technique, the goal is for it to work and that requires work, some pain and an occassional small injury in the process.

How many of you have actually not experienced any injuries from receiving/performing a technique? I know that getting some pain is a given, but injuries? I'm talking minor injuries such as bruises. Even on the wrist doing countless kotegaeshis will get your wrist sore.

raul rodrigo 03-11-2005 06:55 PM

Re: Poll: Is inducing physical pain in others necessary in getting better at aikido?
 
Quote:

Peter Zalinski wrote:
As for Nikkyo (the lock, not the pin) not being painful when applied by the "masters," IMHO, some one has been feeding you bullpucky. You can apply Nikkyo in a way that it is not immediately painful -- but then you are not applying any pressure on the lock, and it serves no purpose -- you may as well perform ikkyo.
I have felt Nikkyo put on my wrist in such a way that my resistance to it was what caused the pain -- and it's pain and the threat of more pain that motivates uke not to attack further. But it still hurts.


I've had nikyo done to me by an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu, and it didnt hurt. But I went down and I didnt entertain any thought of trying to get back up. The no-pain nikyo is not bullpucky, though I doubted it was true before it happened to me. I've received several sankyo from an Aikikai 7th dan and that too did not hurt. But it worked. I've never seen anyone resist this man's sankyo.


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