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xuzen 09-27-2004 03:34 AM

Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Dear friends,

Just yesterday, my national press carried a little sad story.
This is how it went...

An amateur competitive boxer who is also in the army whilst off duty decided to help an innocent man. The innocent man was ganged up and beaten by a group of 3-4 hooligans. This incident happened in the town that I live. He managed to stop the fight by challenging the bullies to a fist fight. The story continues that the bullies decided to leave. The good samaritan then help pay the traumatised victim'c cab fare and send him on his way.

Later, the bullies return with machete/sword. They gang up and attacked the poor soldier. The newspaper also non-specifically stated that the good samaritan also does other martial art.

The poor soul was found in a pile of blood and he survived the attack. However, he is blind in one eye and both his hands are no longer usable as the tendons were severly damaged by the blade attack.

One suspect was arrested and the local police were positive that more arrest will follow soon. However the press also encourages the member of public to donate money to his family as he is from a poor social-economic background.

Sorry got to go now, I will continue thisstory again the next day.

Boon.

ian 09-27-2004 04:42 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
A sad story, but also an honourable one. I think we do what we have to at the time. People forget a heroic act always has the possibility of negative consequences. I would say this was a very selfless man who did the right thing and unfortuantely had to suffer for it. I just hope the perpetrators of this crime get to realise the impact they have made on this persons life.

thisisnotreal 09-27-2004 06:17 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
That f*#@Q$ sucks.

The only thing that I can think that gives me any hope with stuff like this:

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."


Josh

DaveO 09-27-2004 06:19 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

A sad story, but also an honourable one. I think we do what we have to at the time. People forget a heroic act always has the possibility of negative consequences. I would say this was a very selfless man who did the right thing and unfortuantely had to suffer for it. I just hope the perpetrators of this crime get to realise the impact they have made on this persons life.
I hate to say it; and don't mean to offend but bull.

This is a classic example of what not to do in a violent situation. The dude in question acted brave? Not the way I see it - he acted incredibly stupidly.

I grant you; he came to the defense of another. That is very much to be praised - too many would stand by and watch. But come on - everything he could've done to save himself he didn't do - in fact; everything he did more or less guaranteed he was going to get whacked.
'He challenged the bullies to a fistfight'.
OK - so he gave them the chance to fight him; rather than charging in shouting? Or rather; he gave them time to regroup, plan and prepare rather than taking the initiative, keeping it and forcing them off?

Very noble. :rolleyes:

Also very, very dumb. There are too many 'what if's' here to list - what if they were armed? What if they took him up on it? What if they had backup? etc. - the list goes on. Regardless of training, one person cannot safely handle multiple attackers.
Taking the above rule into account; a loud charge to scatter them certainly would be in order; and would be a brave thing to do. Giving them a chance by saying 'fight me' isn't brave; it's just plain stupid.

Going on.... He helped the guy to a cab; paid his fare. Excellent - very generous. Then...he stuck around? Stayed in the area long enough for said hooligans to come back with said sword/machete? Oy vey!
As a soldier; he should have known better. Never ever ever ever remain in the vicinity after a violent encounter!!!!!!

The chance the 'losers' will return to get payback is far too high to consider yourself victorious. This is one of the reasons I maintain you can't win a violent encounter; you can only escape it. The encounter wasn't over when he chased them off. It hadn't even begun yet - if he'd spent a little more time thinking about the tactical situation and less about what a hero he was; he'd have realized the game was going into extra innings. As it was; all he did was make himself a big stationary target.
And don't for a second think that adequate training would help. They withdrew because the chance of their losing to him was nonzero - in other words; there was a chance (albeit a small one from what I see) that they could have been hurt attacking him. So - they left; and got what they needed to insure they would win. They got weapons; they could have got more - more weapons, more people. They could set up ambush. If they're bent on retaliation they will succeed; they'll make sure of it beforehand; a 10th dan can't do anything against a bullet or a knife in the shadows or - more commonly - someone running him down with a car.

Geez; what do you think drive-bys are? Random?

The only way to prevent the retaliation is to remove the target - which means leaving the area. Fast.

People can look at this story however they like; draw what conclusions they will. But if there's lessons to be learned from this; it's these:
1) Stepping in to help someone can be extremely costly; it is a brave thing to do so voluntarily knowing the risks. However; if you're going to do so do everything possible to limit the risk to yourself.

2) Act with honour at all times; but do not let your honour blind you to the fact the agressor will not act with honour.

3) Always vacate the vicinity after a violent encounter.

That one is critical - they all are; but if you think of nothing else; think of that one.

Always leave after a violent encounter.
Always leave after a violent encounter.
Always leave after a violent encounter.
Remember that, everyone. Memorize it; burn it into your subconcious. If he'd done that; he'd be uninjured now.

happysod 09-27-2004 06:42 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
It's turning out to be a bad Monday, I agree with almost everything that DaveO just wrote...

Lyle Laizure 09-27-2004 07:38 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
I agree that it was a noble thing the bystander did by getting involved. Granted maybe not so smart. Sticking around afterwards it seems would have been the fatal mistake.

Amendes 09-27-2004 08:27 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
I used my aikido the other day I decided to not be there.
I seen a man beating up a woman, pushing her against the wall and yelling.
I floored it in my car and chased down the nearest cop and directed him to the scene.

I avoided the fight and I got it broken up, I know the street it was on is famous for brutal stabbings and gangs.

I am afraid of this street because my friend was jumped and stabbed in the throat and face and beaten pretty close to death on this same street a few weeks ago. They also broke all his ribs on one side and kicked his teeth in. They were Native gang members, and they did it because he was white and in the wrong place at the wrong time. Worst of all they were only teenagers, two of them only 15 and one adult with them. I visited him in intensive care, and because of what I seen there was no way I was going to get out of my car on this street and stop the man from beating the woman. Sorry call me a pansy, but there is biker gangs, native gangs, and other gangs all down this street. Prostitutes all over... It's sad... And I don't care how much training I have, I'm not bringing my bare hands to a knife fight.

p00kiethebear 09-27-2004 08:36 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
I don't see why he didn't report the incident to the police. This is just comon sense.

I'm kind of curious as to where Xu was planning on taking this thread so im going to reserve any more comments untill i've heard the rest of what he has to say.

David_francis 09-27-2004 11:05 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
You can say all these things that the guy should have done, its too late now. He didnt know what to do its obvious he just did what he thought seemed right at the time. Challenging them to a fist fight to stop them from beating up some other guy, i think what they did to him is disgusting and that they are animals. Makes you wonder, what you would do in a situation like that, you can say you would do all these things but when it came down to it could you? Often at times like that you dont think straight anyway you're too pumped full of adrenaline and fear.

DaveO 09-27-2004 03:40 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

David Francis wrote:
You can say all these things that the guy should have done, its too late now. He didnt know what to do its obvious he just did what he thought seemed right at the time. Challenging them to a fist fight to stop them from beating up some other guy, i think what they did to him is disgusting and that they are animals. Makes you wonder, what you would do in a situation like that, you can say you would do all these things but when it came down to it could you? Often at times like that you dont think straight anyway you're too pumped full of adrenaline and fear.


Very, very good comments.
He didn't know - though I suggest simple common sense would have saved him a lot of grief. But if he didn't know; at least we can learn from his example and not make the same mistakes.

As for what we'd do; that in itself is a complex issue. Until you are faced with that situation; you can't know exactly. However; before getting into that situation; you can do everything possible to avoid making the same mistakes: You can study stories like this; understand what is happening, and learn accordingly.
You can also tailor your own practice in such a way that your mind and body will act in the best way even when you're scared to death and pumped on adrenaline. This takes understanding and practice. It's not easy; but valuable when needed.
:)

L. Camejo 09-27-2004 08:00 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

Dave Organ wrote:
Regardless of training, one person cannot safely handle multiple attackers.

Hi DaveO,

I agree with everything you said in your posts above, especially the point about rapidly exiting the scene of the conflict.

As far as the story went, it reminds me of the saying "There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity." It was great that he had the sense of compassion for his fellow man to help out in the situation, I don't think playing "fist fight" with hooligans was a wise idea and if nothing else, hanging around in the vicinity for the aggressors to regroup and make effective their asssault was just plain dumb. I feel badly for him though, I know of folks who have experienced similar events.

Regarding the quoted text though I disagree to a point. It depends on the circumstances of the assault, the objective of the aggressors and how well they are armed and how far they plan to go with that armament. One cannot just assume that one WILL fail when faced with a multiple attacker assault, to me this is as bad as assuming that one can take on any amount of attackers in any circumstance and survive. Each encounter is different and must be judged on its own merits.

The fact is if you can't escape you have no choice but to defend yourself (or call to Jesus). I've been faced with this situation a while back and have escaped unscathed (granted, I did follow the rule of exiting the area asap). In that case my response to resisting the assault was enough to ward off their attack, since it was being used as a means to rob me. In resisting, their plan of attack became more costly than the attackers had initially planned, hence the risk outweighed the benefits. Had they been armed or initially planned to kill me however the result may have been different. There are times when one can escape by running and times when the ambush is so well planned that you may walk into it, regardless of training. In these cases, resistance or becoming a victim are often the only options.

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

xuzen 09-27-2004 09:59 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

Nathan Gidney wrote:
I don't see why he didn't report the incident to the police. This is just comon sense.

I'm kind of curious as to where Xu was planning on taking this thread so im going to reserve any more comments untill i've heard the rest of what he has to say.

Ok, friend, I'll continue my story...

Why the poor samaritan did not contact police, I do not know, this incident was only based on what was reported in the press. Maybe he was ambushed, maybe he put up a heroic struggle, nobody know, he was found in a pile of blood at 5.00am the next day, unconscious. The newspaper stated that he received 36 slash wounds.

I have thought of asking following my first post, how one should handle the situation. Some sort of the incident post mortem. However, DaveO has provided ample debriefing. Thanks DaveO.

Nonetheless, it really made me wonder, should one, martial artist or not, voluntary risk his life for heroic deeds?

Humbly yours,
Boon.

davidraybell 09-27-2004 10:30 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

Boon wrote:
Nonetheless, it really made me wonder, should one, martial artist or not, voluntary risk his life for heroic deeds?

We are taught in the Marines never leave a man down. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to get myself or any of my men killed to do so. The nature of combat is such that -- and I hate to say it -- one dead Marine is a far better choice than a squad of mostly dead Marines.

This thread doesn't really focus on combat, but some of the stories that I've heard of combat are a lot friendlier than some of the streets I've been on in the US. And I have a lot more options in combat. If I can stop the fight, as an Aikidoka, a Marine, or just a good person I will and I have. However, IMHO I must be able to do this with minimum risk to myself and others. One dead is better than two. Sometimes that means crazy screaming runs, other times it means calling the cops. The situation dictates.

And yes, I wanna beat the horse too:

LEAVE THE AREA IMMEDIATELY. There is no quicker way to get real dead, real quick than to stay at the location of a fire fight... or any fight for that matter.

xuzen 09-28-2004 09:21 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Much thought I have put in into thinking about the situation. DaveO, you are right; in hindsight, the poor soldier is extremely brave but not very bright. I believe he may have just barge in without tactically thinking about the whole situation. In your previous post you mention about escaping and fighting not to win but rather not to lose. I can relate that that the piece of advice given by you is so very applicable. I believe the soldier may have been acted a little to bravado, he just did not think about his escape/retreat route.

Regards,
Boon.

Bill Danosky 03-09-2005 09:54 PM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
I think the soldier performed an important civic duty by intervening in the assault. As members of society, it's important to establish and protect the rule of law. Even when you have some risk involved, it's in every citizen's interest to make sure the good guys always win.

That's not to say everyone must rush into the middle of any encounter they see. Call the police, honk your car horn, flag down help, whatever you can do, you MUST do.

In my opinion, the government in his country should give him a disability pension and rehabilitation benefits. The big error the soldier made was that he failed to plan for the thug's return- if he were staying in the area, he should have had the police lay an ambush and run them all downtown for deadly assault and mob action. The neighborhood would be rid of some dangerous elements and the cops would appreciate the bust!

Hardware 03-10-2005 01:08 AM

Re: Real Realistic attack, really...
 
Quote:

Andrew Mendes wrote:
I... I know the street it was on is famous for brutal stabbings and gangs.

I am afraid of this street because my friend was jumped and stabbed in the throat and face and beaten pretty close to death on this same street a few weeks ago. They also broke all his ribs on one side and kicked his teeth in. They were Native gang members, and they did it because he was white and in the wrong place at the wrong time. Worst of all they were only teenagers, two of them only 15 and one adult with them. ... but there is biker gangs, native gangs, and other gangs all down this street. Prostitutes all over... It's sad...

Holy moly! Where is this place, that we may all avoid it? (Winnipeg?)


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