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-   -   Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6474)

Aristeia 09-13-2004 09:38 PM

Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Ok this has been bugging me. I've seen two variations of ikkyo - one where nage makes contact right on (or even just below) the elbow, and one where they meet higher up on the bicep/tricep or right up by the shoulder and rotate from there. What are people's thoughts on this, which do you do?

shihonage 09-13-2004 11:15 PM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
which do you do?

The one that is going to work best with the current uke at this current moment.

Aristeia 09-13-2004 11:51 PM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
The one that is going to work best with the current uke at this current moment.

*sigh* ok let me rephrase. What do you do as kihon.

stuartjvnorton 09-14-2004 12:43 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Elbow.

If the axis or rotation is a straight line from the wrist to the shoulder and the arm is bent, the elbow seems the optimal place to apply any rotational force.

Lan Powers 09-14-2004 01:34 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Elbow here as well. I have seen the biceps version done also, but it takes more force. At least with the nages that were doing it to me.
Lan

JJF 09-14-2004 02:00 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Elbow or just above. Allows for the manipulation of a pressurepoint on the outside of the 'knuckle' of the elbow, if need be.

Also I find it makes perfect sence body-mechanics wise. With the hand on the Biceps I would expect the technique to become more aggressive, but I have got much experience doing it that way though. Explore and deside for your self.

happysod 09-14-2004 03:01 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
I go for the elbow every time, I just sometimes (often?) miss and end up with the shoulder. As long as I've got a bit of body, I'm happy...

PaulieWalnuts 09-14-2004 03:19 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Ikkyo is immobilisation through controling the elbow, if somebody grabs above it, all you have to do is drop your elbow and you can counter

ian 09-14-2004 03:33 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
If the blending is good it shouldn't matter, however anybody teaching you to hold below the elbow is just plain wrong. This is for two reasons.

To control the shoulder you must hold just above the elbow (I usually say to ensure that the thumb is in the soft inner bit of the bend of the elbow). Otherwise uke can just drop their elbow and escape. (I know Tony said the converse; when I mean 'above the elbow' I mean towards the shoulder)

Also, one thumb width above the elbow (on the outside) is a pressure point (which can actually be used for knock-outs). Sometimes it is convenient to use the blade of the hand on this point rather than a grab - this tends to make uke turn away and bend over (ideal for ikkyo).

Thus don't hold below the elbow, don't hold the elbow directly, hold so the index finger and thumb are just barely above the elbow. Try these variations and you'll see why.

Ian

ian 09-14-2004 03:35 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
P.S. holding further up the arm is sometimes useful for an ikkyo projection because you tighten the shoulder more, but as stated before, for a pin it requires more force.

PaulieWalnuts 09-14-2004 04:55 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
If you grab above the elbow you better be stronger than uke becuase if he has any martial mind set he will stop it, also try grabing under the elbow rather than on top, that agian is easy to counter, but if you cut the arm over and take the elbow from underneath you can roll thearm giving you max control.

Aristeia 09-14-2004 05:02 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Thanks all, what you've said has pretty much confirmed what I thought. It never hurts to consult with a wider community though. :)

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 06:20 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Another interesting option is "over the ear" vs "spiral out".

happysod 09-14-2004 06:36 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Greg, is their lead foot planted yet or not? Also, to project or not to project - that may be my question

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 07:10 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

Ian Hurst wrote:
Greg, is their lead foot planted yet or not? Also, to project or not to project - that may be my question

I'm just trying to provoke meaningful conversation...

If you're interested in what I, personally, do...

In our kihonwaza, nage initiates with tegatana to uke's face. They are in ai hanmi and there is no step.

Before my first instructor kicked me out of the nest and sent me to Goto Sensei, I did the "elbow over uke's ear" version even under these circumstances.

Goto Sensei transitioned my practice to the "spiral out" version. It, or rather the concepts behind it, rippled through all of my aikido.

In ki-no-nagare, if my timing is good and I catch a shomen on the way up, I sometimes still recruit that energy and take it over their head. But, rather than ikkyo, I now tend to do a projection as you mention.

But, heh, that's me and my cosmology. There are lots more out there that work.

FWIW,

happysod 09-14-2004 07:28 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Greg, I think we're using the same hymn sheet - If the lead leg is planted, spiral out, if not over the head may be possible if (as you mention) the energy is there. I also find the spiral out version easier to combine with aiming for the tip of the triangle to unbalance and take uke off line.

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 08:08 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Ian,

I don't want to launch into all the details, but I was wondering if you'd noticed something that is key for me? If you're into this, then the other details are, I think, all there too.

For me it is essential to grasp uke's wrist when the other details have caused uke to give me the inside (pulse area) of his wrist flat-on. I take that area in my palm and my thumb wraps around to the top/back of uke's wrist.

If I don't do this, my "spiral" ikkyo falls apart. It is so important to me that I think of it as equal to uke giving me his back when grappling.

Best regards,

happysod 09-14-2004 08:48 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Greg, I don't think I'm quite as precise in my use as yourself. I agree, you need the palm flat to get the spiral to work and I find if I get a side-on grab there's more of a projection away than a spiral down. However, for me the flat of my palm can be against either the pulse side or the outside of the wrist, it just seems to change the actual size of the spiral rather than its entire shape.

Staring to think about it and arguing with myself... thank god for not having open plan offices (have you noticed how hard it is to grab yourself properly, honestly, I'm my own worst uke most of the time)

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 08:59 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
I "run out of room" on the spiral if I don't get the outside hand palm-to-pulse. I can't get a solid connection during the spiral.

Then, in the finishing position, if I've grabbed the outside of the wrist, my wrist is bent, my structure is past/in front of uke's arm and only my thumb is holding uke down/level. The end result is an opening where uke can resist effectively.

I also notice that students that do it with the bent wrist tend to lever on uke's elbow. Because they have more mojo under uke's wrist vice on top of it, they naturally want to lift the wrist and push down on the elbow. Owwww.

Best,

happysod 09-14-2004 09:08 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
You do realise what you're forcing me to go off and practice now don't' you...

I normally find the palm to outside wrist spiral is shorter and thinking about it I do lead the arm closer to my own base than with the palm to pulse version - more like the finishing position with a tenkan movement rather than an irimi. As for the pin at the finish, whole different ball game. I've never been convinced by the ikkyo pin without a bit of nikyo thrown in (I know, heathen, burn the apostate) so I have to admit to a catch and release with ikkyo, hopefully at the kicking distance.

markwalsh 09-14-2004 09:21 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Certainly no expert, but I'd normally go elbow or just above as discused. Reasons to take higher might include:

- For safety reasons with children (so they don't accidentlly got through each other elbows, rokkyo styley).

- To roll the muscles of the arm, as a different method of applying ikkyo.

Mark
x

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 09:52 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

Ian Hurst wrote:
<snip>As for the pin at the finish, whole different ball game. I've never been convinced by the ikkyo pin without a bit of nikyo thrown in (I know, heathen, burn the apostate) so I have to admit to a catch and release with ikkyo, hopefully at the kicking distance.

I treat the basic techniques as two-person kata to teach principles. Ikkyo is the foundation and nikyo, sankyo, etc. add to it.

If you're interested in an applied version, try one of these two:

1. When you have uke's balance broken and are ready to take them down, put the knee/upper shin of your inside leg over their shoulder and ride them down. You'll end up with your inside leg on top of their shoulder and the arm braced over your outside thigh. You have both hands free to do whatever comes to mind.

2. Take them down as normal, but at the very end, angle toward them and slide closer so that their arm is bridged over your outside thigh and the inside thigh is against their ribs. You have a hand on their elbow and there is nothing but 6" of space under it. You are telling them very explicitly that you can snap the elbow in a big way...

Be careful,

happysod 09-14-2004 10:15 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Now (1) I hadn't seen/heard of before .. - the light of determined experimentation is now in my eye and a cheesy grin is attempting to crack my manly (tm) visage - thanks a lot for this one Greg.

Greg Jennings 09-14-2004 10:28 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

Ian Hurst wrote:
Now (1) I hadn't seen/heard of before .. - the light of determined experimentation is now in my eye and a cheesy grin is attempting to crack my manly (tm) visage - thanks a lot for this one Greg.

You're very welcome.

If you have trouble, let me know and I'll try to get pics or a MPEG for you. It would take a while. I might cancel class Wed due to hurricane Ivan.

If you like it, drop me a line. I can think of several more off the top of my head. Some incredibly simple, others bordering on fanciful.

Best regards,

Lyle Laizure 09-14-2004 10:47 AM

Re: Ikkyo vs elbow or bicep/shoulder
 
Quote:

which do you do?
The one your sensei is demonstrating at the moment. That is the easy answer.

When I perform ikkyo I like the tricep area but in a serious situation I would impact the armpit and then allow my hand to slide to to the tricep for the takedown.

For the pinning itself I pin with one hand on each side of the elbow, about three inches from the joint itself.


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