AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   oyo henka (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6443)

Charles Hill 09-10-2004 02:49 AM

oyo henka
 
Hi,

I recently bought Saotome Sensei`s Oyo Henka DVD and have some questions.

1. The narrator explains different levels of practice including oyo henka and kumite geiko. Am I right in understanding that Saotome Sensei defines the difference as, oyo henka practice is where uke provides resistance "bracing" and nage works with that energy, and kumite geiko is where the partners are activily trying to reverse each other?

2. How do Saotome Sensei`s students who are teachers incorporate this stuff into formal classes? Do you/they say now we will do kumite geiko, for example?

Thanks
Charles

batemanb 09-10-2004 06:27 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Charles,

I'm not sure about either of these in Saotome Sensei's perspective.

I am under the impression that oyo henka is "variations", i.e. the technique is a nikkyo but doesn't neccessarily resemble the basic version when getting to the application. I guess this could come from a more dynamic attack, since the added motion allows for different application.

I've not come across the term kumite geiko, but reads like fighting practice to me, which could indicate that uke is resisting more, i.e. fighting to stop the technique happening.

probably doesn't help at all.

rgds

thisisnotreal 09-10-2004 07:38 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Charles,
Would you recommend this DVD? I was thinking about purchasing it.

Thanks for the advice.

Josh

Charles Hill 09-10-2004 06:27 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Hi Bryan, thanks for replying. As I understand it, oyo refers to practical application and henka means change from one technique to another. On the dvd, Saotome Sensei seems to use the term to indicate a very specific practice, when uke stops nage from doing a particular technique. For example, when nage tries katatedori shihonage, uke can lower her weight and brace against having her arm being raised up. Saotome Sensei shows how to use that resistance to do another technique. The narration refers to another type of practice where uke tries to reverse the technique, what we usually call kaeshiwaza, right? This practice is refered to as kumite geiko. My experience has been that in practice of a more free nature, both of these get mixed up. After seeing the dvd, I`m thinking that separating the two and giving them specific names might be a very good idea. I`m wondering how teachers have incorporated this strict separation in their classes. I teach high school students, and frankly, they are too immature to handle this kind of practice, but I`m still interested in hearing opinions and ideas.

Josh,

I highly recommend this dvd. However, I recommend Saotome Sensei`s Principles of Aikido dvd first. I think that oyo henka practice is quite advanced and a student could really cut themselves off at the feet by trying it before having a solid handle on the basics. Another important point is that S Sensei`s uke on the dvd are both quite good. Most of the resistence I personally encounter is by lower level students who could not take the ukemi safely if I suddenly change the technique.

Charles Hill

Chuck Clark 09-10-2004 10:16 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Charles,

This is what we, in the Jiyushinkai, call randori. Other groups that practice Tomiki flavor also do similar practice. Saotome once saw our randori and called it aikido kumite geiko. What he calls oyo waza we have always called renraku waza or another name that's similar is renzoku waza. A rose by any other name...

Charles Hill 09-11-2004 11:11 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Mr. Clark,

Thank you for replying. When do you introduce randori and renzoku waza in a student`s development? Do you have specific randori classes/ sections of a class? Or do you encourage students of a certain level to spontaneously practice that way if the opportunity arises?

Thank you,
Charles Hill

Chuck Clark 09-12-2004 12:47 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Our kihon dosa are practiced in sotai kata geiko. The usual level that students begin to randori is at yonkyu or sankyu when they have acquired some basic "vocabulary" that gives them some tools to be able to randori. We train kata in most classes with the last 45 minutes or so for randori and randori drills. Sometimes we do a full class in our more advanced practice in randori. Changing partners every 10 minutes or so. We also have open mat training times on the weekends where people often meet to randori or work on specific kata for an hour and then randori for an hour, etc.

The seiteigata practice in our system is made up of what we call "tandoku undo" (solitary posture and movement kata) with fundamental movements that are possible in aikibudo, a kuzushi and tsukuri kata called "musubi renshu", and we then have a sotai kata called "junana hon kata" (17 basic techniques kata), and also the "owaza jupon" (a basic kata teaching more advanced applications of principles), also a "koshi waza no kata", and then the traditional six koryu no kata that are made up of the early techniques from the pre-war period. Randori includes: futari geiko, taninsu dori, and tanto dori. We also have 3 boken kata and 3 jo kata.

Many of us also practice Shinto Muso Ryu Jo and a number of our more senior people are also practicing Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu with Philip Relnick Sensei.

As you can see, we have a full plate...

batemanb 09-12-2004 03:19 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Hi Bryan, thanks for replying. As I understand it, oyo refers to practical application and henka means change from one technique to another. On the dvd, Saotome Sensei seems to use the term to indicate a very specific practice, when uke stops nage from doing a particular technique. For example, when nage tries katatedori shihonage, uke can lower her weight and brace against having her arm being raised up. Saotome Sensei shows how to use that resistance to do another technique. The narration refers to another type of practice where uke tries to reverse the technique, what we usually call kaeshiwaza, right? This practice is refered to as kumite geiko. My experience has been that in practice of a more free nature, both of these get mixed up. After seeing the dvd, I`m thinking that separating the two and giving them specific names might be a very good idea. I`m wondering how teachers have incorporated this strict separation in their classes. I teach high school students, and frankly, they are too immature to handle this kind of practice, but I`m still interested in hearing opinions and ideas.

Hi Charles,

I`m going to research this a little more, will get back to you soon.

regards

Bryan

Lan Powers 09-13-2004 06:32 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Our Sensei calls oyo-henka the changing of a technique mid-stream, without actually manifesting the first technique completely. For instance, ikyo to shiho-nage would mean starting the ikyo but before cutting down into the initial balance break (ie: as you "peak" the movement towards the breakover point) you change to another, in this case shiho-nage.
As apposed to henka-waza which is to do the full first break of posture in the ikyo then change.
Does this sound familiar to anyone else? I hope I am not taking his terms out of context.
Lan

nmrmak 11-18-2004 04:16 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Quote:

Lan Powers wrote:
Our Sensei calls oyo-henka the changing of a technique mid-stream, without actually manifesting the first technique completely. For instance, ikyo to shiho-nage would mean starting the ikyo but before cutting down into the initial balance break (ie: as you "peak" the movement towards the breakover point) you change to another, in this case shiho-nage.
As apposed to henka-waza which is to do the full first break of posture in the ikyo then change.
Does this sound familiar to anyone else? I hope I am not taking his terms out of context.
Lan

I've just got back from my dojo where i traied the ikkyo-shihonage-kotegaeshi technique. I really liked it. You do get a special feeling while having uke trying to hit you, but all he's doing is flying around. It is exaustive, both as a nage and uke.

aikidoc 11-18-2004 05:28 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Lan: actually you are referring to oyo waza period. Oyo henka is where the uke stops the technique and you find another technique.

batemanb 11-19-2004 08:10 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Hi Charles,

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I put out some questions to two of my Sensei's back in Japan, one seventh dan who used to study with Saotome Sensei many years ago, the other a 6th dan who was a student of Yamaguchi Sensei. It took a while to get the answers back.

The first one said that oyo henka is where uke changes the technique to something else because that's what the situation requires (e.g. uke stops the initial technique). This can be a variation of the initial technique (perhaps where I was originally coming from) or it can be a totally different technique. He said that kumite was not an Aikido term, there is no kumite in Aikido.

My other sensei did not understand either of the terms, he said that they were not terms that he had used or come across in Aikido.

I think we're pretty much agreed on our understanding of oyo henka :), but haven't been able to clarify kumite keiko any better :(.

rgds

Bryan

Charles Hill 11-21-2004 01:35 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Hi Bryan,

I think that the labeling is a teaching technique for Saotome Sensei. I am a bit disappointed that no one from an ASU dojo commented or replied. I think that what Saotome Sensei calls kumite is a kind of free practice. Endo Shihan would sometimes show a few techniques and then call "jiyu waza" which we would do for the rest of the hour. Would he have gotten that from Yamaguchi Sensei?

Charles Hill

Aikilove 11-21-2004 06:39 AM

Re: oyo henka
 
Charles would Endo Sensei then mean that you should play around with by him given attacks/techniques and also perhaps add others. That would then be consistent with what I have experienced at most aikikai dojos.

Mark Uttech 11-21-2004 01:54 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Oyo-henka is another level of takemusu-aiki. What's taking place is a stream of energy that branches off into other streams.... At least, that is the way i understand it. In gassho, tamonmark

rob_liberti 11-23-2004 01:55 PM

Re: oyo henka
 
Quote:

Bryan Bateman wrote:
He said that kumite was not an Aikido term, there is no kumite in Aikido.

My other sensei did not understand either of the terms, he said that they were not terms that he had used or come across in Aikido.

Yamaguchi Sensei was Saotome Sensei first teacher.
Saotome sensei made up a lot of words to describe things. Another example would be musubi. Ask any Japanese person what that is and they will probably look at their shoes to see if they are tied. Saotome Sensei meant it to be tieing energy together. I heard him explain it as a leaf falling onto a moving stream. He is very artisitic especially in his choice of expression.

I think his Japanese vocabulary with respect to aikido is probably just fine...

I am in the ASU and I think that kind of training is something you have to build up to. I would encourage it in after-class training myself.

I thnk any DVD of him moving is worthwhile just to get an image of what it could be like.

Rob


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:22 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.