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-   -   Difference btw randori and jiyu waza (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6324)

xuzen 08-25-2004 11:57 PM

Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Dear forumers,

I tried the websearch function to try to obtain information wrt to difference btw jiyu waza and randori, but I could not get a satisfactory answer.

So I try asking if anyone can help me differentiate between the meaning of randori and jiyu waza. Is it simply the same thing with only name differences or they are technically two different thing.

Some background info:
In Yoshinkan style, free sparing is called jiyu waza, Tomiki/Judo is called Randori. Does Hombu has an equivalent concept?

Regards,
Boon.

PeterR 08-26-2004 12:16 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
At the risk of being taken to task for making general statements.

The key in Tomiki/Judo randori is the resistance or more specifically the loss of distinction between tori and uke.

Jiyu waza in Aikikai/Yoshinkan maintains this distinction and is considered the lowest level of randori training in Tomiki - we call it Kakari geiko

Randori in Aikikai can best be described as multi-person jiyuwaza. In Tomiki we call this Ni nin dori or San nin dori for two or three opponents, respectively.

These forms of jiyu waza can get quite rough and are a valuable training mechanism and I would say there is quite a bit of potential overlap in definitions.

Ian Upstone 08-26-2004 04:21 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
More general statements below... Please feel free to correct! More my own interpretation, but seems to fit in with what others are saying. Like Peter said, I think there's plenty of overlap potential!

Jiyuwaza (freestyle techniques) Attacking and throwing is controlled with the emphasis on flowing techniques, and uke is usually compliant. Despite being 'freestyle' we sometimes do jiyuwaza with some sort of limit, i.e. limited types of attack, or in some cases, limited variations of just one technique!

Randori (literally - taking/grasping chaos) Where uke attacks however they like (within reason) and is trying to overwhelm nage/tori/sh'te, with varying levels of resistance depending on how it is taught in a particular school. This obviously is much harder training, that has more potential for becoming a little scrappy! (and people pull better faces in randori!)

ian 08-26-2004 04:40 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
in our club:

jiyuwaza ('freestyle') - one person attack, any techniques

randori - multiple attack

xuzen 08-26-2004 10:19 PM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Thank you all folks for your explaination. Now I know that randori is the multiple uke variation of jiyu-waza. Lovely.

Boon.

ian 08-27-2004 06:05 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
P.S. Xu, I like your signature; it reminds me of something Chuang Tzu wrote about learning; "you cannot use what is limited to understand what is unlimited"

aikidoc 08-27-2004 08:51 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Futari gake also means multiple attackers but I don't know if it is used to describe randori.

kironin 08-27-2004 09:42 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Futari gake means two people attacking

Sannin gake means three people attacking

by itself it doesn't imply randori

needs to be
futari gake jiyu waza

aikidoc 08-27-2004 12:44 PM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Futari gake (or dori) from my understanding means multiple attackers and is not limited to just two. Taninzugake also means multiple attackers. Ninin-gake = two, sanin gake=3. In The Aikido Master Course: Best Aikido 2, futari dori is under a category of multiple attackers (2 or more is what is stated). The examples however only show two attackers. Can anyone clarify this who speaks Japanese? Is futari gake limited to two or more general like taninzugake?

saltlakeaiki 08-27-2004 07:59 PM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Quote:

John Riggs wrote:
Can anyone clarify this who speaks Japanese? Is futari gake limited to two or more general like taninzugake?

Literally: "futari" = "two people", "sannin" = "three people", "taninzu" = "many people".

HTH :)
Dave

kironin 08-28-2004 12:43 AM

Re: Difference btw randori and jiyu waza
 
Quote:

David Iannucci wrote:
Literally: "futari" = "two people", "sannin" = "three people", "taninzu" = "many people".

HTH :)
Dave

Which agrees with the counting we did in UH Japanese intensive course I took. (at least I learned what hitori waza meant :D )

The official label for Taigi 20 given in the Ki Society is
"Futari gake, Sannin Gake"
http://www.toitsu.de/video/video.htm

The first 4 techinques demonstrated have two ukes grabbing nage.
The 5th technique has an additional uke grabbing from behind.
Then a 3 person randori finishes the taigi (though very often an additional two ukes are added to make it a 5 person randori (gonin IIRC) ).


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