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Nathan Richmond 03-05-2001 02:47 PM

Hello everyone. I just began studying Aikido a few weeks ago. I did some research before joining other than just liking Steven Seagal.

That being said I have a question that probably many beginners ask. This is probably most directed at those of you who have been in aikido for some time.

I realize that Aikido is basically reacting to what someone else would attempt to do to you. Such as grabbing, pushing, punching, kicking, etc. I am right about this right?

So my question is: Can Aikido techniques be applied in situations that you must make the first move? I realize that in Aikido that is considered going against what you are taught. But there are some situations where you would have to make the first move. Would you provoke someone to have to make a move at you first? Or could you actually use an Aikido move on someone who isn't attacking you?

Thank you,
Sorry for Ignorance.


Brian 03-05-2001 03:12 PM

Apply gratuitous amounts of atemi(striking/off-balancing techniques), at which point their body will be more than happy to cooperate with you.

mj 03-05-2001 04:04 PM

:eek: Hi Brian...
Later on in aiki, if you 'reverse' the direction of a lot of your moves, you will find them to be what you 'want'.
ie... the opposite of aikido. :)

mj 03-05-2001 04:07 PM

:eek: Sorry, Nathan, sorry Brian.
I meant to reply to Nathan of course.

Mike Collins 03-05-2001 04:16 PM

Timing is everything.

My teacher is pretty clear that it is martially not correct to wait, and react. It makes more sense to set them up before any contact is made so that they believe they are making the first move, and you are already in the place of advantage. It can look like waiting or like making the first move but it really isn't either.

Train hard and it'll make sense. It can't here (I hope, or I've wasted a hell of a lot of time).

MikeE 03-05-2001 05:02 PM

In Aikido the old phrase "He who hesitates is lost" is king. In my dojo we practice what Bill Sosa Sensei refers to a shodoseisu (controlling the first move). This doesn't mean that we will always use atemi or geri. Often it will involve control of ma ai (distance). Whether or not this is done by moving towards the person, off the line, or away from the person is dependent on the situation. I would disagree that Aikido is "reacting" to a situation. This implies unpreparedness. I prefer to respond to the situation. This implies thought before action. So, I guess I put alot of emphasis on being aware of my surroundings, and what situation I am putting myself into. This is not to say there is no reflex action in Aikido. I believe the basics should be reflexive, but what you do after that should be cognitive. (i.e. you avoid a punch and control someone with ikkyo--but do you reflexively throw them in front of a bus? No, you avoid hurting or killing them and circle them gently to the ground without harm).

To paraphrase Rickson Gracie "I am afraid of everything...that's why I've been around so long. A little paranoia is a good thing."

So stay alert and be as prepared as possible.

Chris P. 03-05-2001 05:39 PM

Quote:

Nathan Richmond wrote:
I realize that Aikido is basically reacting to what someone else would attempt to do to you. Such as grabbing, pushing, punching, kicking, etc. I am right about this right?

I had this debate with some other students a few weeks ago. My position was that you must never react to what you are given, you must choose what you are given.

In my opinion, there is nothing more dangerous then a fair fight. Never give a sucker (attacker) an even break.

akiy 03-06-2001 08:34 AM

Quote:

Chris P. wrote:
My position was that you must never react to what you are given, you must choose what you are given.
Can you explain this a bit? It sounds a little like you're anticipating what's going to be happening...

-- Jun

Sam 03-06-2001 08:56 AM

Here is a story for you!
 
Reading this thread in what is a pre-emptive strike, I thought I might tell you what happened to somebody who also practises Aikido.

This person was travelling home from training one evening in a subway train when he noticed 3 men whom had obviously been drinking were staring at him (the train was otherwise empty). I guess he sensed trouble when they started pushing each other round as a prelude to beating him up. They started to advance, but before they were able to reach him and he took out a rubber training tanto from his kit bag (the type which is moulded to look like a knife and has a silver painted end) and struck each of them in the chest just like you do in randori. This happened as the train pulled into a station and he then ran out of the train. He looked back to see the three of the completely unharmed but stood in shock, arms open, examining their chest for the wound.


When I heard this I thought it was pretty funny, and whenever somebody says pre-emptive strike I think of this.

Chris P. 03-06-2001 01:18 PM

Quote:

akiy wrote:
Quote:

Chris P. wrote:
My position was that you must never react to what you are given, you must choose what you are given.
Can you explain this a bit? It sounds a little like you're anticipating what's going to be happening...

-- Jun

Choosing. Not anticipating. Otherwise you are their puppet and they will pull your strings.

The attacker sees good and bad options. You've really given them bad and terrible options. They choose what looks like their best option, but it isn't quite good enough, you've got them. If they choose the terrible option, you thump them. They should have known better.

This is my way of Mario Kart, and Aikido.

Chris P. 03-06-2001 04:12 PM

Quote:

Brian wrote:
Apply gratuitous amounts of atemi(striking/off-balancing techniques), at which point their body will be more than happy to cooperate with you.
How come striking is so easy for Aikido people but so challenging for martial artists of other styles? Seriously.

Brian 03-06-2001 08:07 PM

Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

How come striking is so easy for Aikido people but so challenging for martial artists of other styles?

I really couldn't tell you.

Jim23 03-06-2001 08:52 PM

Quote:

Brian wrote:
Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

How come striking is so easy for Aikido people but so challenging for martial artists of other styles?

I really couldn't tell you.

You're joking, right?

You must be joking. Otherwise you don't know what you don't know.

Jim23

nikonl 03-06-2001 11:31 PM

making the 1st move
 
My sensei told us that if we have to wait for the attacker, might as well just walk away. i mean, if he doesn't attack, then why are both of us standing there for? Remember that Aikido is a non-violent martial art. Atemi is used mainly to distract/assist in our techniques.

akiy 03-07-2001 08:51 AM

Re: making the 1st move
 
Quote:

nikon wrote:
My sensei told us that if we have to wait for the attacker, might as well just walk away. i mean, if he doesn't attack, then why are both of us standing there for?
So, what do you do when someone isn't attacking you but someone else?

-- Jun

andrew 03-07-2001 09:32 AM

Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

This is my way of Mario Kart

My way of Mario Kart is to leave bananas on the ramp at the beach shortcut.

andrew

andrew 03-07-2001 09:40 AM

Quote:

Nathan Richmond wrote:
I realize that Aikido is basically reacting to what someone else would attempt to do to you. Such as grabbing, pushing, punching, kicking, etc. I am right about this right?

So my question is: Can Aikido techniques be applied in situations that you must make the first move?


First paragraph: I don't think so. I think it's easier at the start if it's approached this way.

Second part, yes it can. It's just a little tricky to start off with this. In a randori (about which I have little practical experience) he who waits for an attack is going to be in trouble pretty quickly. He must make the first move, draw an attack and hence find an opening to do a technique.

Aikido technique requires openings that we give freely to each other in training by attacking in a committed manner. Eventually we learn to create these openings by drawing the desired attack. If you're an eccentric and wildly gifted old man who created Aikido, you eventually get to the point where you insist that the attacker doesn't actually exist.
andrew


Chris P. 03-07-2001 01:17 PM

Quote:

andrew wrote:
Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

This is my way of Mario Kart

My way of Mario Kart is to leave bananas on the ramp at the beach shortcut.

andrew

Once you reach a high level in your training, you can bypass the ramp and jump directly into the cave. Or use a star to trump the bananas. Or, in some circumstances, clear the banana with a green or even a red shell.

andrew 03-07-2001 02:55 PM

Quote:

Chris P. wrote:
Quote:

andrew wrote:
Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

This is my way of Mario Kart

My way of Mario Kart is to leave bananas on the ramp at the beach shortcut.

andrew

Once you reach a high level in your training, you can bypass the ramp and jump directly into the cave

No way! Cool.
andrew

Maputosimon 03-19-2001 06:02 PM

If attack is directed towards someone else
 
firstly, we would think about whether we would really want to get involved. Vigilanteism doesn't quite equate with inner peace & harmony with the Universe as aspired by traditional schools. On the other side, if someone else is being attacked, there will be movement, and that's all we need to be able to redirect and exploit.

Maputosimon 03-19-2001 06:06 PM

Re: Re: making the 1st move
 
Quote:

So, what do you do when someone isn't attacking you but someone else?

-- Jun [/b]
If attack is directed towards someone else
firstly, we would think about whether we would really want to get involved. Vigilanteism doesn't quite equate with inner peace & harmony with the Universe as aspired by traditional schools. On the other side, if someone else is being attacked, there will be movement, and that's all we need to be able to redirect and exploit.
__________________
Maputosimon

IP: Logged

PeterR 03-20-2001 07:08 AM

Although most Aikido training is based on reactive (go no sen) situations, there is a whole class of techniques based on sen no sen (siezing the initiative).

For those who are bothered with the idea that Aikido is not supposed to be aggressive (i.e. no attacks) it all boils down to intent. There is a big difference between resolving a situation you have been put in and actively seeking out that situation.

andrew 03-20-2001 07:21 AM

Quote:

PeterR wrote:
Although most Aikido training is based on reactive (go no sen) situations, there is a whole class of techniques based on sen no sen (siezing the initiative).

I can't disagree with the fact that is the first part of your statement there. That's how we train. However-

"O Sensei: In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength.

(interviewer): Does that mean ~o no sen? (This term refers to a late response to an attack.)

O Sensei: Absolutely not. It is not a question of either sensen no sen or sen no sen..."



I've cut short his answer. I'm not claiming this statement has practical value to me either, just pointing it out... (I think the squiggle there should be a g, yeah?)
andrew

PeterR 03-20-2001 08:09 AM

Quote:

andrew wrote:
Quote:

PeterR wrote:
Although most Aikido training is based on reactive (go no sen) situations, there is a whole class of techniques based on sen no sen (siezing the initiative).

I can't disagree with the fact that is the first part of your statement there. That's how we train. However-

"O Sensei: In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost.

That is why I brought in the word intent. Aggressivity will only get you into trouble as would any other strong emotion such as fear.

I suggest that the apparent contradiction between sen no sen and the above quote was one of mistranslation. Replace attack with aggression and it all makes sense. Do you know the source of the translation it wasn't John Stevens was it?.

akiy 03-20-2001 08:36 AM

Re: making the 1st move
 
Quote:

Maputosimon wrote:
Quote:

So, what do you do when someone isn't attacking you but someone else?

-- Jun
If attack is directed towards someone else
firstly, we would think about whether we would really want to get involved. Vigilanteism doesn't quite equate with inner peace & harmony with the Universe as aspired by traditional schools.[/b]
My question was in response to someone saying that their teacher said that "if we have to wait for the attacker, might as well just walk away." I can't say I was advocating vigilantism with my question but was wondering what people would do, say, if your young son, daughter, or any other such loved one were being attacked.

Even if someone else weren't being attacked, there's something to be said, I believe, about being able to draw out the attack if necessary. Sen no sen, sen sen no sen, and all that.

Also, Maputosimon, please be sure to sign your posts with your real name as it is a Forum rule. Thank you.

-- Jun


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