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CarlRylander 08-07-2004 05:01 AM

Boxing type punches
 
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?

Devin McDowell 08-07-2004 06:27 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
I don't think aikido usually has blocks. Blocking is stopping the attacker's force with your opposite, stronger force. Aikido is about redirecting or avoiding the attacker's force. That said, learning some blocks is a good idea.

Against the boxer's punches, I would try to keep out of the way and apply a tecnique if I could grab one of his arms.

Michael Meister 08-07-2004 08:54 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
We do this once in a while. Usually we start up with a block or two, like boxers would do. The point is, that you probably often don't have enough time in such an encounter. So the first goal would be to survive the first one or two punches.
Basically we move into the back and take his balance by his shoulders (sorry, don't remember what the technique's called, my english isn't good enough to explain it better).

Anywas, the most important advice I've heard so far was : "Don't box with a boxer, do force him to do Aikido".

shihonage 08-07-2004 02:29 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Carl Rylander wrote:
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?

Drive into him with ikkyo as he is putting up his guard (doesnt matter that you cant get his elbow up), continue applying pressure to his whole person and ride around his resistance with ikkyo ura or hiji-kime (sp?).

Do it in a fast and powerful way.

Quote:

Against the boxer's punches, I would try to keep out of the way and apply a tecnique if I could grab one of his arms.
The complete uselessness of this approach becomes glaringly obvious when you actually get attacked by a boxer.
He's not some uke, he's an aware and mobile entity, here and now, which throws fakes and punches that cannot be caught.

Quote:

Basically we move into the back and take his balance by his shoulders (sorry, don't remember what the technique's called, my english isn't good enough to explain it better).
You can't get behind a boxer unless you occupy him with something - hence the "driving into him with ikkyo" part.

Greg Jennings 08-07-2004 05:11 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Take them to the deep water. That is, where you have the biggest advantage.

A straight-forward approach vs a boxer would be to show them a couple of boxing-type blocks and/or punches to lull them to sleep, then show them a jab and quickly transition to a dive into the inside or outside of one of their knees and drive, drive, drive while holding on. Their instinctual reaction is to go down face forward, thereby giving you their back.

My favorite is to hold onto the leg, step over it outside to inside and trap them in a very painful leg lock that leaves both my hands free. If someone can't figure out how to wrap it up from there, they just don't have any imagination.

Of course, how well you succeed at this depends on how well trained you are at it. Hard work, rather than a silver bullet.

Regards,

L. Camejo 08-07-2004 09:06 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Hey Greg,

That tech you outlined above sounds very very similar to something I learnt from Mark Barlow in Akayama Ryu.:)

My personal thing for boxing attacks - follow and ride his movement and apply kuzushi. This however calls for an uncanny ability with distancing and timing (which we tend to practice a lot from dealing with jabbing tanto attacks in tanto shiai training). What has worked best for me is to not even go for the arm initially, as the other hand tends to get you as he won't stay there while you attack it and go for kuzushi or technique. Most boxers I know will step back a bit or turn to get you off of them (open space) and then quickly come back in with a punch.

Atemi waza (as in Aigamae Ate or Shomen Ate) can be launched as quickly as any punch and used instead to throw. This has worked best for me, especially when the boxer is recoiling from the jab. Timing and strong entry though is key.

Second option would be to use reactive kuzushi (on the retract of the jab) to control the arm or body with any sort of strong entering technique. In this option you are using the energy of the recoil to help you move into the boxer to control the arm and get kuzushi. Simple options that come to mind are tenkai kotegaeshi, tenkai kotehineri or sumi otoshi. The key here is to enter deeper than where the Boxer has attempted to stop when recoiling his punch, else you just run into the other hand and get creamed. Kuzushi is key.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

akiy 08-07-2004 10:23 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
As can be seen at the bottom of this page under "Similar Threads", here are a couple of threads which relate to this topic:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3948
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536

-- Jun

Michael Meister 08-08-2004 01:48 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
You can't get behind a boxer unless you occupy him with something - hence the "driving into him with ikkyo" part.

Guess that's why my most succesful technique would runnung away anyway ;) .
Ikkyo was what we used to get into, we just finished it with going for the shoulders... if only I could remember the name. I think our strategies are not that far apart.

Michael Meister 08-08-2004 02:09 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
I should add, that we used a combination of hooks as attack. There are other boxing type attacks which probable need some variation anyway.

acot 08-08-2004 06:27 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Don't mess with the fakes, only deal with the commited attach. Since a boxer's focus is on the upper body then perhaps an atemi(swift kick to the shin) to the lower body could be used to draw his focus away from their main weapon. Then apply which ever technique is available. Remember to keep the right distance and force him to extend his punches and body in order to reach you.

SeiserL 08-08-2004 09:21 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
IMHO, enter deep, off the attack line, Irimi-nage, Sayu-undo, and if you can control the elbow on th retratcion take it to the rear kuzushi (balance) point. Jabs can also be slapped down into Kaiten-nage.

Actually, there are ways to make almost any waza (technique) work if you apply the concepts and practice. Jab, cross, hook, and uppercuts are just another atemi (strike).

Go to the dojo and play with it until you figure it out. Have fun.

MitchMZ 08-08-2004 10:52 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
It would be incredibly hard to deal with a boxer, but I think the best technique against a boxer is just a simple side kick or half kick to the leg. Sure it isnt necessarily true Aikido, but after I applied those atemi I would probably move in for an irimi nage. I'm actually planning on doing some boxing once I get a stronger base in Aikido. Also, I don't really plan on being able to go around the outside of a punch/jab. I find 9 times out of 10 that you should treat punches/jabs almost like a yokomenuchi strike and use triangular footwork to step inside the line of attack rather than around the outside. There are still a TON of Aikido techniques that can be done from this position. I even thinking if you did a kokyunage variation when you apply a half kick to his lower leg that it would work fairly well...because at that moment he would be off balance and if you are close enough youd be in a good position for it; almost like your tripping him with your leg like you would in judo.

Mark Tennenhouse 08-08-2004 08:03 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
To handle a boxers jab you need to train against this technique as well as against hooks. It's crucial to remember a certain principle in fighting..Defense first.. attack later..
I've done some boxing, wing chun and other arts in which the attacker used realistic and repeated striking attacks to the face and head. As most street fights and boxing attacks involve head strikes this is a very important situation to learn about. The safest way to handle the attack is by using a boxing defense to ride out the strikes until you get close enough to grab Uke's head and bicep; a tie up. From there you can work aikido. The defense is simple to use once you've practiced it a little. You crouch slightly forward and put both palms on your forehead with the elbows pointing forwards and the forearms covering the face. Never move your hands off the head because this leaves your arms loose allowing strikes to enter. This position is an extremely tight emergency position that expert boxers use when in trouble. it allows a fighter to survive both hooks and straight punches during repeated striking attempts. By twisting slightly side to side you can deflect straight punches. By sliding a hand all the way to the back of the head, you are able to use a boxers block to nullify heavy hook punches to the head. I have tapes showing how this is used in street fights and NHB matches by grapplers to survive boxing attacks. It works and doesn't require great skill, speed or training. The leg tackle requires you to lower your head too much. All of the arm grabbing tactics are extremely risky against striking attacks because missing means you'll be taking several more strikes and the arms are moving too fast to grab safely. I've tried both the tackle and and arm grabbing tactics with very very little luck. As sun tzu said..know the enemy..win half your battles..know yourself win half..know both..win 100%..
Sincerely..Mark T

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 08-08-2004 08:07 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
From my limited experience in sparring...not actually with a boxer...don't ignore atemi. Yes, the boxer is going to be much better than you at striking; but I find atemi are crucial. Much harder to pull off that quick jab when they have to at least respond to some sort of threat.

I think the best advice, though, is to play around with it and learn. If there were easy answers that didn't need training to implement, dojo would be libraries...

xuzen 08-08-2004 11:52 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Have you ever notice how boxer hold each other in the ring to prevent the other player from jabbing. There, do the same, only difference is in a competitive ring, the boxers are by law not allow to use leg. In actual martial combat, everything is fair game. You can almost do anyting once you hug him. Osoto gari, side reap, hip throw, the only limitation is your imagination.

Regards,
Boon

batemanb 08-09-2004 01:04 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Mitch Kuntz wrote:
....but I think the best technique against a boxer is just a simple side kick or half kick to the leg. Sure it isnt necessarily true Aikido.........

I've seen Gozo Shioda use kicks quite frequently in some of his videos.

Bryan

MitchMZ 08-09-2004 08:23 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Yeah, Ive also seen Saotome Sensei use a front snap kick in a demonstration DVD. It was interesting that he didn't use it like you would normally use a kick, but just used it to bring his uke down to the mat. It almost could be though of as an irimi nage using his leg!

Ron Tisdale 08-09-2004 12:29 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Boon Soh wrote:
Have you ever notice how boxer hold each other in the ring to prevent the other player from jabbing. There, do the same, only difference is in a competitive ring, the boxers are by law not allow to use leg. In actual martial combat, everything is fair game. You can almost do anyting once you hug him. Osoto gari, side reap, hip throw, the only limitation is your imagination.

Regards,
Boon

Depending on the ability of the person you're hugging...:) Try that against a boxer who has done some judo and you're in for a surprise...I would not equate the distance in a standing clinch with the ideal distance for aikido technique. YMMV...

RT

Michael Meister 08-09-2004 12:53 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Another problem with hugging is just, that boxers usually are quite well muscled. I'd give me not more than a few seconds, by than I'd surely have to come up with something else. On the other hand, it gives you at least a little time to think of something.
Depending on the power and position your opponent might go for your kidneys in a clinch. Nothing I'd like to have someone doing.

Ron Tisdale 08-09-2004 12:59 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
shots to the kidneys, back and side of the head, knocks your knees around with his knees to take your balance, elbows to the short ribs, headbutts, all kinds of nasty things boxers can do in a clinch. And it takes work (if not practice) to actually 'tie' them up...they are used to people trying to tie them up and fighting through it. I'm not saying they are the end all be all of fighting..just that its awfull easy to type a strategy to deal with them...

Ron

gilsinnj 08-13-2004 09:40 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
We practice these fairly often, and have found that there are some basic Aikido techniques that are possible against jabs and hook punches. The thing that we've found with jabs is that they are typically not full-out power punches. They are many times used to setup other punches with a lot more power (i.e. the hook punch).

FYI - We don't practice full speed jabs until our students get up to the 2nd kyu level. Usually, it takes that long for the student to become used to doing the basic techniques without thinking about them. They can start working on moving quickly, but not fast and flailing.

Nage needs to remember that there is almost no way that they will be able to catch the fist or wrist of uke. The jab punch is extremely fast, and doesn't allow for much time to try to grab. The best thing we've found is to turn tenkan (avoiding the punch as much as possible) and come heavy down on their elbow. Since the jab isn't done with much force, uke is very often fully in balance during the entire punch. By using a heavy down on their elbow, it brings them off-balance, and then you can work more standard Aikido techniques (usually a good kokyu nage right up the front works well).

As I said earlier, we don't start our junior students with fast jabs, but we do work with them as they get more senior. By the time they get to 2nd and 1st kyu, we use full speed jabs and we've added in the follow-up hook punch. This really challenges the students, but makes them sharp.

In reality, we hope that our students won't get into this kind of situation and learn another way to deal with the situation, but... The biggest thing these techniques teach the students doesn't seem to be dealing with a real boxer jab, but moving from one point. We've found that without moving from one point, there's no way you can move quick enough to get out of the way of this jab. By moving from one point, you stand a good chance of at least getting out of the way of the jab punch. From there, there's a lot of good Aikido techniques and principles that can be applied.

Just some thoughts,
Jim

Lyle Laizure 08-13-2004 11:39 AM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
You have to use atemi to create your opening to move in or to draw the attacker out of his/her sphere of strength and balance.

paw 08-13-2004 12:25 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote:
You have to use atemi to create your opening to move in or to draw the attacker out of his/her sphere of strength and balance.

I would expect that atemi would be the sphere of strength and balance for a boxer.

Regards,

Paul

Lyle Laizure 08-13-2004 07:47 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
The boxer is a striker but his sphere of strength is the same as anyone elses. To draw him/her out of that sphere you have to take his balance. In the case of the boxer this is more of a mental balance you will have to address. You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode. This is not easy. Practice, practice, and more practice.

L. Camejo 08-13-2004 08:40 PM

Re: Boxing type punches
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote:
You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode. This is not easy. Practice, practice, and more practice.

Of course there is also the application of atemi waza with Sen and sen no sen timing. Letting your atemi waza land before his by pre-empting the strike. As said, it takes practice.

LC:ai::ki


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