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PeterR 07-08-2004 07:55 PM

Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
So how many out there have entered a Judo dojo after several years training as an Aikidoist - any interesting experiences.

I'll start. In the Judo dojo I attend there are a few kids that are hungry. Very good, very serious about their Judo. One girl has been trying for two years to throw me. Of course I can physically dominate her although she is very strong and of course if she gets close I go down but last week she got me. Perfect timing, balance broken, nothing given, I was down. I've never seen her smile in Judo before (outside yes) but at that moment she had a huge grin. So here I am, on one side very proud of her, on the other side my masculinity destroyed by a 14 year old girl. Oh woe.

Ok so this week - dark thoughts of revenge coursing through my emasculated mind - I show up but she is absent. In her place is a new guy built like a brick shit house. The randori was tough, lots of bumping of heads and twisting of collars, I knew something was up. Tachi was going now where but almost by mutual consent we went down into newaza and then things got interesting. I do think, even though he outweighed me, that I dominated but it was close. Afterward he came up to me and said that his pride was lost (shades of me the week before). Turns out that he was a wrestler and had figured I was toast. I tell you now our next match will be interesting.

I must say I really like the people I've met doing Judo. No need for posturing - its very clear who can do what to who. You may fight hard but before and afterward - very relaxed.

Ian Williams 07-08-2004 09:52 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
the benefits of full speed, fully resistant randori...... wistful sigh...

Zato Ichi 07-09-2004 06:47 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Well, this is kinda the opposite of a judo sparring aikidoka... more of an aikido sparring judoka, but it was an eye opener for me, anyways:

During randori, I attempted aigamaeate but didn't have the proper kuzushi, so I wasn't able to throw my opponent. I then reacted purely on instinct: I was in excellent position for koshi guruma and just went for it. By the time I realised what I had done, my opponent was on his back, looking at me with a "What the @?!# was that?" expression on his face. That was bad enough, but sensei was watching at the time (just my luck... three bouts going on, and he was looking my way):

"Hori-san... aikido."

"Hai! Gomen nasai!" <-- I think I had turned a very embarressed red by this time

Oops. :blush:

L. Camejo 07-09-2004 07:20 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Hey folks,

I've got a few interesting Judo stories, but will distribute them as the thread goes.:)

Got a similar story to Hori's actually.

Was doing standing randori with a guy who is about my size, but training Judo pretty regularly (I tend to visit whenever the wind blows me in that direction) and for a long time we were at a stalemate. This was probably because every time he tried to enter or attack I'd keep him off by extending tegatana or sinking weight.

After a while he got frustrated and really tried going for ko soto gari I think. I immediately used tegatana as in Aigamae ate, but against the shoulder. Same time pulling downward on the opposite arm and turning my hips. So it looked like a sloppy Ashi Guruma (without the leg trip).

He dropped to the mat, looking up a bit dazzled and smiling. He said - "you do aikido eh?" I said yeah. The next month he joined our club.:)

Got a few others, I'll leave that one for now. I have a nice Judo VS Aikido one for next time.:)

To echo Peter's comments though, whenever I'm in Judo it's all about what you can do - no dan grade posturing, or "you don't have the right to train with me yet" sort of BS. You get on the mat, if you get pinned, take it, curse to yourself to do better next time, smile to your opponent and move on. Sort of like resistance Randori practice .:)

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Yann Golanski 07-09-2004 07:21 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
*laughs* Hori-san, I can imagine Nariyama sensei's face when he told you that! Besides, he will spot you doing something wrong. It's one of those sensei thing. They never see the 99 times you do the technique with perfect kuzushi and timing. Just the one time you mess up... </arrogance></joke>

Chris Birke 07-09-2004 07:58 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Jeez, whenever I do judo with judo people, I get worked. I can slow, stall, get lucky, and hang on the ground, but... it's good breakfall practice otherwise. =)

Mark Mueller 07-09-2004 08:00 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
My story is on the painful side....I was sparring with a friend (who by the way is 20 years younger and about 25 lbs heavier). As long as I stayed at a distance where he had to extend to grab I was fine and he was frustrated....Then I got a little cocky and moved to his distance to see what I could do....to make a long story short he swept my leg, dislocated my knee, completely tore my ACL, ripped my PCL, and tore my meniscus. One of the most painful injuries I have ever had.

markwalsh 07-09-2004 08:44 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Aikido v Judo seems to be quite dangerous due to the different training methods, particularly in regards to resistance and competition.

I think many Aikidoka would be shocked at how ineffective their Aikido is against even a moderately experienced Judoka, and even a few lessons may inform their practice. Judo people are so quick and on the ground...

I found it can be frustrating competing within the rules of Judo as most Aikido techniques are illegal. Those lovely wrists were so near and dying to be twisted! What I would like to see is an advanced Aikidoka use kokyu nage in Judo.

I've used Judo techniques a few times by accident in Aikido free practice. Usually when I muck up a technique, lose uke's momentum (so have to attack) and get too close.

Slight aside: I find Judo techniques are better for play fighting with (non Aikido) friends and children, as they can be applied with less risk of injury.

Mark
x

GLWeeks 07-09-2004 08:45 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Mark Mueller wrote:
My story is on the painful side....I was sparring with a friend (who by the way is 20 years younger and about 25 lbs heavier). As long as I stayed at a distance where he had to extend to grab I was fine and he was frustrated....Then I got a little cocky and moved to his distance to see what I could do....to make a long story short he swept my leg, dislocated my knee, completely tore my ACL, ripped my PCL, and tore my meniscus. One of the most painful injuries I have ever had.


Holy crap!!

I have a nephew in Alaska that's about 17 now(I'm 36) and he loves to try and beat up his uncle when he comes to visit.... We both have karate backgrouds, but now he's been studying Judo for about 3 years.... I took up Aikido about 13 months ago... I'm looking forward to his next visit. :D ;)

L. Camejo 07-09-2004 09:31 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
Aikido v Judo seems to be quite dangerous due to the different training methods, particularly in regards to resistance and competition.

Well depending on the type of training one does in Aikido, it's not that different, except in the area of Ne Waza. Some believe Aikido and Judo to be principally the same thing with techinques defined by distance/ma ai.

Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
I think many Aikidoka would be shocked at how ineffective their Aikido is against even a moderately experienced Judoka, and even a few lessons may inform their practice.

I think many Judoka are also surprised (unless they cross train in jujutsu etc.) when in standing waza against an Aikidoka who uses Aikido Tekubi and Atemi waza against them. I've also made the "mistake" of doing a variation kime/tekubi osae technique (Yonkyo for the Aikikai folks) on his forearm while in a Judo Ne waza bout. We heard someone scream and start tapping hard, when we looked around it was the Judo BB I had grabbed with the kime to get into a position for a stranglehold. ooops.... :eek:

He was okay though, just shocked that such a thing could have been applied during ne waza. Afterwards we were looking for ways to hide it from judges in the event it could be sneaked into Judo competition somewhere. evileyes

Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
Judo people are so quick and on the ground...

Very very true. I've found though that the application of tegatana while moving one's hips in certain directions is a great way to escape from mounts and block things like kesa gatame without much energy use.

The one thing that always gets me during Judo Ne Waza is the anaerobic workout. I may drag myself off the Aikido mat after Tanto Randori, but I need to get dragged off the Judo mat after Ne Waza - [Voice of Scottie] I just can't do it Keptin, I just don't have the power.:) [/Voice of Scottie]

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Mark Mueller 07-09-2004 11:17 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
"I have a nephew in Alaska that's about 17 now(I'm 36) and he loves to try and beat up his uncle "

Guy, I have the same exact situation with a nephew. Big strapping 17 y.o. (I am 47). He is anxious to prove how strong he his.....I have one piece of advice....pain works! Nikkyo, Sankyo and a variety of pressure points give me the advantage! and I never give him an opening!

AsimHanif 07-09-2004 11:31 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
I had some very good experiences training with judo and jujutsu people. At times the best I may get is a stand off which is fine. There is a competive judo club down the block from me so every now and then I visit. It is a challenge playing by their rules, especially me being 5'6", 150 (on a good day). Most of the players there are 6' 200lbs or better, so being physical isn't going to do it for me. It's good training, although I'm not into the competitive thing. The value I get is seeing what works on non-compliant aikido people who are trained well in their own discipline. I do fight the urge to grab fingers and joints though:-)

Zato Ichi 07-09-2004 06:51 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
*laughs* Hori-san, I can imagine Nariyama sensei's face when he told you that!

Heh. Fortunately, Yann, Nariyama-shihan wasn't teaching this particular class (although, like you, I can see his face in my mind as well). However, it was being taught by his uchideshi, so I pretty much got the same look....

And call me Haruo. Hori-san is what I'm called at the dojo. By the Japanese, at least. Foreigners tend to call me "That Bastard With the Big Wrists". :)

Ian Williams 07-09-2004 08:17 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
Those lovely wrists were so near and dying to be twisted!

I hear ya!.....grabbing the gi? luxury!......

Michael Neal 07-09-2004 08:38 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
There is one Aikidoka that has given me problems since I started Judo. He can get a rough
Tenchi nage like throw on me on occasion because he is alot stonger than I am. However, I guess it is not really Aikido because it is pure strength he uses. There are two reasons this guy gives me problems 1) Much stonger than me 2) Has been doing Judo for at least 6 months so he is not really just an Aikidoka anymore.

But even him being alot stronger than me I generally am the one throwing and pinning him.

Otherwise I generally throw Aikidoka with impunity and pin and submit them at will. :)

PS: I would love for an Aikidoka to try and grab my wrists during randori, that means you don' have a good grip on me and are likley going for a ride.

kironin 07-09-2004 11:42 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
The black belt judoka I have sparred with had trouble doing any kind of throw on me. shrug

now, newaza, is another matter. on the ground it's very easy to get caught up in their game with those who really love doing newaza are really tricky.

Craig

xuzen 07-10-2004 12:44 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Dear all,

It has always facinate me to cross spar with people of other art but I never have the opportunity. Maybe yes, but then these people are also aikidoka as in my dojo there are also TKD players and kalaripayattu students cross trainers.

After reading this thread, it has prompted me to seek out the nearest judo dojo and try to see it for myself, how it feels like to spar with non-aikidoka. So here goes, I am going to a judokan this coming friday. Thank god, one of my co-worker's brother is a judo instructor at this dojo, this i hope will make it easier for me to approach them.

Boon.

Ian Williams 07-10-2004 12:55 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Hi Boon! please report back on your experiences!

PeterR 07-10-2004 02:34 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Yes Boon please do - this is exactly what I am asking for. Some Aikido before exploring a bit of Judo.

I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down. However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

L. Camejo 07-10-2004 11:04 AM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

Very true Peter.

This leads me to my third Judo/Aikido story.:)

A Judo Ikkyu was having fun pinning some TKD folks after a friendly TKD tournament. I was a corner judge and just got fed up of seeing this guy grinning to himself after he obliterated the TKD guys in friendly sparring. He would ruch them, take em down and pin em in a matter of seconds. He saw me shaking my head in the corner and laughing so he asked me to have a go.

I had no gi on so I steppend on the mat in jeans and a polo shirt. Knowing how Judokas tend to go for certain parts of the anatomy/gi to grab and establish control I decided, why fight it? So as we closed ma ai I dangled my right arm temptingly in front of my body. Like a kid to candy he went for it.

I let him grab the arm, stepped in, pivoted 270 degrees, kotegaeshi. The next thing he knew he was turned around and on his back looking at the ceiling, perfect kotegaeshi ukemi and all.:)

I quickly bowed to him and exited the mat before he got any ideas for a re-match.:) I just didn't want to have to go to ne waza in my jeans y'know. :crazy: Of course the TKD sensei and his guys did not feel so badly afterwards as well.:)

So that was my other story.:) most of the others are about me getting my butt kicked in ne waza during normal Judo practice.:)

Regards.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal 07-10-2004 12:26 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down.

I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.

And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.

p00kiethebear 07-10-2004 01:40 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

built like a brick shit house
Haha. I gotta remember that one.

L. Camejo 07-10-2004 02:47 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Michael Neal wrote:
And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

Wow Michael you really did your research.:)

In Shodokan Aikido though we don't actually do Judo tecnique but use the same principles of kuzushi, timing etc. to execute Aikido technique.

Also remember that this was in friendly sparring and not serious competition randori in the last case. In the others, my Judo/Jujutsu experience and careful use of body weight helped a lot. I got beat repeatedly in ne waza though whenever I was spent physically and against someone my own size or larger, which is why I always go back to learn more.:) The cardio fitness and ground fighting experience you get from Judo grappling is a great thing. Helps me learn to apply my Aikido principles on the floor as well.:)

Quote:

Michael Neal wrote:
I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.

Generally I agree with you. The best chance most Aikidoka has against a serious Judoka/Jujutsuka on the mat or otherwise has a lot to do with "dealing with the initial assault." Once they get a hold of you it could be over before most of us know it. Hence my insistence (whether implicit or explicit) on playing the game my way or not playing at all when using Aikido against Judo.:)

Just my thoughts. Also it shows the benefits of resistance randori training regardless of which Budo you do. According to Kano - to understand the principles of Shobu Ho, method of fighting - this is why we have randori.

LC:ai::ki:

Chris Li 07-10-2004 03:39 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Michael Neal wrote:
I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.

And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.


Hmm, I don't fit that profile, I'm a skinny little guy and (when I was practicing Judo) had not had all that much experience in other martial arts and only 3 or 4 years in Aikikai Aikido. FWIW, I didn't have too much trouble holding my own against people of a similar level of experience (theirs in Judo, mine in Aikido) when we were standing up, although my size told against me on the ground. The Judo was certainly not subpar - our instructor had coached both the Japanese and US Olympic teams.

Best,

Chris

kironin 07-10-2004 06:26 PM

Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
Yes Boon please do - this is exactly what I am asking for. Some Aikido before exploring a bit of Judo.

I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down. However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

I don't disgree. You have to be adaptable and have a healthy respect for what your Judo partner can do.

Who is talking about one, or just a shodan ? nidan, sandan...

but as to shutting each other down, yeah I would not have called it an exciting spectator sport. :-)

my understanding of sport judo is the rules have evolved over the years to keep things moving and more exciting for the crowd.

if you have to constantly bounce around hooked on to each other, not hard to understand that someone's timing is going to get a little off and allow a really sweet throw to happen.

playing on the ground with good judoka though is definitely :crazy:
Craig


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