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-   -   Ki; How do you train your Ki? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594)

ronin_10562 02-23-2001 12:32 PM

In Nihon Goshin Aikido we have 15 Ki techniques and we must be able to perform 10 for ShoDan. The reason we train in Ki is to develop Mushin (mind of no mind. in other words you must be centered and aware of your environment with out mentally focusing on any one thing.). Through our training we learn to control our mind and body even in adversity. That is the test. Assume two people are trying to lift you, and you remain calm and relaxed they will not be able to and while they are lifting the last part of the test is to do a front kick while keeping the other foot on the mat. If you are centered you will succeed and if your not centered up you go.
How does this help you in battle? Through thousands of repetitions of your techniques your body knows how to react. But your mind may hinder your natural ability to respond to attacks. By being centered you will see the attacks clearly and the body will respond accordingly.

Does any one else train in Ki techniques? Do you believe in Ki?


Walt

DiNalt 02-23-2001 12:46 PM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:

Does any one else train in Ki techniques? Do you believe in Ki?

Yes, however I don't believe in the "unliftable body" trick :)

ronin_10562 02-23-2001 01:40 PM

I don't think of Ki as another form of energy. I feel that Ki is when the body and mind are in sync, through proper posture and breathing. The purpose of Ki exercise is to devolop Mushin. Or to state it another way when you are in Mushin you are extending Ki. I don't give Ki to much credit as a super energy source that will cure the ill or give you super powers.
My personal definition of Ki exercise is to get to a state of mind. Have you ever had the experience of having the attacker seemingly moving in slow motion and you have a lot of time to set up the perfect response? I think that is the most common experience, and by training in Ki you are able to get that ability frequently.


Walt

tedehara 02-24-2001 07:48 PM

Ki Development
 
Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
I don't think of Ki as another form of energy. I feel that Ki is when the body and mind are in sync, through proper posture and breathing. The purpose of Ki exercise is to devolop Mushin. Or to state it another way when you are in Mushin you are extending Ki. I don't give Ki to much credit as a super energy source that will cure the ill or give you super powers.
My personal definition of Ki exercise is to get to a state of mind. Have you ever had the experience of having the attacker seemingly moving in slow motion and you have a lot of time to set up the perfect response? I think that is the most common experience, and by training in Ki you are able to get that ability frequently.


Walt

Hi Walt,

Glad to see you're posting here! :)

In the Ki Society and related styles of Aikido, Ki Development is a separate program of training. Ki breathing, ki meditation, ki exercises, kiatsu-ho (accupressure) and ki testing are taught separate from aikido training. Then in the aikido practice, ki testing (see: http://www.aikiweb.com/spiritual/reed2.html) is used to determine if you're practicing correctly.

Personally, I tend to agree with you, in that it's better to consider such stuff as mind and body coordination, rather than try and lump it all under the concept of Ki.

Actually, the theories on Ki by Koichi Tohei, 10th dan, head instructor under O Sensei and founder of Intl. Ki Society, originated from Tempu Nakamura of Tempukai (see: http://www.michionline.org/spring00/page12.html ). Tempu Nakamura is known in Japan like Norman Vincent Peale or Dale Carnegie is in the USA. Nakamura's organization (Tempukai), taught a Positive Mental Attitude for living and is well known in the Japanese business community.

While many of O Sensei's students complained of not understanding O Sensei explanations of his aikido, Koichi Tohei Sensei wrote that he could make sense of O Sensei's aikido by applying the practices and theories of Nakamura Sensei. Of course, Tohei Sensei and others have since added on their own theories & training methods to their program of aikido practice.

While I have seen time subjectively slow down, this hasn't occurred on the mat, but in the "real world". Each time it was a highly intense episode of life. I see it more like your body telling you - Better be Careful! ;)


[Edited by tedehara on February 25, 2001 at 09:08am]

Catherine 02-26-2001 04:39 PM

"I don't believe in the "unliftable body" trick" -DiNalt

Why not? I am a relatively small person -weighing only 90 pounds. Everyone else in my dojo is at least twice my weight, yet if I use weight underside, they cannot lift me up. My brother can't lift me up, and I know he (at least) would not lie. Although, I have to admit I don't think I could keep weight underisde while doing a kick- besides, is a kick even aiki?

DiNalt 02-26-2001 04:50 PM

Quote:

Catherine wrote:
"I don't believe in the "unliftable body" trick" -DiNalt

Why not? I am a relatively small person -weighing only 90 pounds. Everyone else in my dojo is at least twice my weight, yet if I use weight underside, they cannot lift me up. My brother can't lift me up, and I know he (at least) would not lie. Although, I have to admit I don't think I could keep weight underisde while doing a kick- besides, is a kick even aiki?

I don't know what the trick is based on - weight shifting or the fact that you become limp and simply slide out of the person's arms.

I don't particularly believe in it though because I saw a high-ranking person demonstrate it and it didn't work.

Erik 02-26-2001 05:08 PM

Quote:

DiNalt wrote:
I don't know what the trick is based on - weight shifting or the fact that you become limp and simply slide out of the person's arms.

I don't particularly believe in it though because I saw a high-ranking person demonstrate it and it didn't work.
I look at the ki tricks with a somewhat similar perspective. I was fed a lot of stuff about the unbendable arm and flowing ki through it. Looking at the mechanics of the situation and how muscles work the answer is really much more mundane--if muscles don't work against one another, they are much stronger. It just so happens that the visualization does help produce the desired result.

tedehara 02-26-2001 05:43 PM

Unliftable Body
 
[quote]DiNalt wrote:
Quote:

I don't know what the trick is based on - weight shifting or the fact that you become limp and simply slide out of the person's arms.

I don't particularly believe in it though because I saw a high-ranking person demonstrate it and it didn't work.
:D That's it exactly! You need to know why this works and what it's demonstrating!

Even though this seems like a simple TRICK, there are several important ways you can go wrong. This doesn't matter how high ranking the person is.

But look at it this way:[list=1][*] Expert A does a shiho-nage and it works :)[*] I try the same shiho-nage and it doesn't work :([*] Does this mean the shiho-nage technique doesn't work :confused:[*] NO! It just means that my shiho-nage technique doesn't work :eek:[/list=1]
Of course, this means you need to suspend your disbelief until you can find someone who can adequately demonstrate and explain unliftable body.

Be patient, there are people out there who can show you. It may not be tomorrow or even next month, but if you keep your eyes open, you'll find them.

Jim23 02-26-2001 06:47 PM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
attacker seemingly moving in slow motion and you have a lot of time to set up the perfect response?
Yes, when someone ran a red light and broadsided me! Is that Ki? Only problem is that my car was hit.

I don't really believe in that ki stuff. Perhaps it's called focus, peak state, or whatever.

Sure ain't magic!

Jim23

andrew 03-01-2001 02:47 AM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
Does any one else train in Ki techniques? Do you believe in Ki?

We all train in "Ki" when we do Kokyo-ho. (We do all do that, right?) Or at least, it's described as a ki-developing exercise in "Budo."

andrew

Mabuse 03-01-2001 05:08 AM

It works like magic
 
I was confused by unbendable arm for some time. I just didn't understand the concept. I read "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" and tried the visualization it described, and it worked! Only after I had experienced it did I think about the scientific explanation and start to "understand" it that way as well.

So, for me, ki works _like_ magic, but I don't believe it _is_ magic. The important thing is that visualizing ki works. Somehow the concept works with the body to achieve the results.

So I stopped worrying about the mechanics and science, and started using ki. I still analyse things sometimes, but it's just out of curiousity, and not necessary for my practice.

I think this was one of the most important steps in my training so far.

TheProdigy 03-01-2001 06:00 AM

Hey, I must say I've become quite fascinated with the concept of ki, and although I'm new to martial arts in general I believe its very real. Now, I do believe that people give credit to ki when ki had nothing to do with it (not sure how much, but it seems like it so far). I'm soon to be taking some Tai chi classes to begin understand it more fully (and from what I hear about people in it, their utilization of ki(chi/Qi) can be very powerful.

Those that deny its existance though, I'm curious how long it took you to come up with that conclusion...? Afterall, did you simply assume its not possible? or did you spend 20years with guidence to try and understand it without success? Because, if it was the former I personally wouldn't rule out the possibility of its existance. Humans are capable of some extremely powerful things, and to simply assume something isn't possible is a fast route to limiting your potential.

As for the unliftable body "trick", I've had a shodan 90lbs girl demonstrate it to me... and, she started by letting me which was very easy. Then, same posture, stance and everything she was unliftable, and yes I lift with my legs, good posture, etc.. I suppose relaxation and a steady mind were the cause of her suddenly being unliftable, but regardless it went from super easy to impossible against all my strength (lol and no she didnt jump with it the 1st time.. felt about 100lbs, and i lift weights). By the way, her arm dont bend or raise either lol unless she wants it to... lots of it in the mind from what I've experienced.

Good luck in your pursuits of ki.

-Jase

P.S. If you dont think its possible to do then, for you, it wont be.

ronin_10562 03-01-2001 02:12 PM

Yes you can do some or maybe all ki exercises like a trick. If you do it that way then you've missed the point.

As for kicking when some students are trying to lift you the reason again is mind control. You just added another degree of dificulty to the ki exercise. It is hard enough keeping both feet on the ground with two people trying to lift you just try raising one leg up and stay centered. The other way of practicing this is by allowing them to pick you up and then you center and sink back to the floor.

Walt

Chris P. 03-01-2001 03:06 PM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
In Nihon Goshin Aikido we have 15 Ki techniques and we must be able to perform 10 for ShoDan. The reason we train in Ki is to develop Mushin (mind of no mind. in other words you must be centered and aware of your environment with out mentally focusing on any one thing.). Through our training we learn to control our mind and body even in adversity. That is the test. Assume two people are trying to lift you, and you remain calm and relaxed they will not be able to and while they are lifting the last part of the test is to do a front kick while keeping the other foot on the mat. If you are centered you will succeed and if your not centered up you go.
How does this help you in battle? Through thousands of repetitions of your techniques your body knows how to react. But your mind may hinder your natural ability to respond to attacks. By being centered you will see the attacks clearly and the body will respond accordingly.

Does any one else train in Ki techniques? Do you believe in Ki?
Walt

Every technique I practice is a Ki technique. I don't believe in Ki because of any explanation I've heard. I only believe my own experience.

That said, I have heard many strange claims about applications of Ki. I have heard people say "use Ki" when IMO they should have said "keep your balance", "use leverage", "better timing", etc. I have seen people try "unliftable body" and "unbendable arm", without success. Any shmuck can talk about Ki, few if any can prove it, and that does NOT make it any less real.

If you can truly achieve "unliftable body" by Shodan, I think you must be extremely talented. I would like to come by and practice with you some time. Where do you train?

tedehara 03-01-2001 04:48 PM

Seattle Ki Society
 
Quote:

Chris P. wrote:

...If you can truly achieve "unliftable body" by Shodan, I think you must be extremely talented. I would like to come by and practice with you some time. Where do you train?

If you find this stuff interesting, then why not drop by
The Seattle Ki Society
6106 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA
Phone: (206) 527-2151
Instructor: Koichi Kashiwaya, 8th dan
E-mail: aikidoki@ix.netcom.com

Kashiwaya Sensei is also the head of the USA Ki Society. You've got one of the best groups to observe ki stuff right next to you!

TheProdigy 03-01-2001 07:27 PM

Hey, I just wanted to add a quick bit to what I said earlier regarding these ki "tricks", such as unliftable body and unbendable arm. In my dojo (kokikai style), the emphasis with these techniques is relaxation! Relax completely and keep one point and they somehow work.

Just tonight, a brown belt weighing about 155 was teaching the basics class. He demonstrated the unliftable body, first showing how much more difficult it was when he shifted his weight down. Then standing upright and very relaxed he was unliftable. Another guy who looked about 200lbs and an ex-boxer was doing the lifting (he's new to aikido). So, I can't say why they work exactly, but they do. It was a great class tonight btw...

Have a good one,
-Jase

P.S. Great discussion here too btw...

ronin_10562 03-02-2001 01:25 PM

Chris P
My dojo is located at 95 Croton Ave Ossining NY or you can contact me at nihongoshinaikido.com
Another link with most NGA dojos is http://www.ngaikido.com/links.html.


When an Instructor says use your ki to correct a student that maybe because that is the root of the problem and not the symptom. That is the dificult part of teaching. I find that some students will make the same mistakes over and over even when they understand the correction that is given. That is because I have treated only the symptom and not the cause. An example in my own training; I was trying to do I kyu from a club attack and it was always a struggle to get the correct grip and ukes arm in the correct position. Mr. Bowe pointed out that my footwork wasn't correct. Once the footwork was corrected the technique would just fall into place. So the symptom was the poor hand position but the root of the problem was the footwork.
So lack of Ki can be the root to many problems of doing technique.

Walt

kFc 03-11-2001 12:39 AM

Here is a good link which shows you how to do these "tricks" as well as trying to explain the meaning behind them. Very interesting read:

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/CoolKi.html

Nicki

Chris P. 03-12-2001 06:52 PM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
When an Instructor says use your ki to correct a student that maybe because that is the root of the problem and not the symptom. That is the dificult part of teaching. I find that some students will make the same mistakes over and over even when they understand the correction that is given. That is because I have treated only the symptom and not the cause. An example in my own training; I was trying to do I kyu from a club attack and it was always a struggle to get the correct grip and ukes arm in the correct position. Mr. Bowe pointed out that my footwork wasn't correct. Once the footwork was corrected the technique would just fall into place. So the symptom was the poor hand position but the root of the problem was the footwork.
So lack of Ki can be the root to many problems of doing technique.

Walt

That is a good point, but I don't think it applies to Ki in the same sense it applies to footwork.

I have yet to meet anyone who would benefit from a "use more Ki" criticism. If they knew how, they would almost certainly be doing it already, and if they didn't, this tip would be useless.

Also, I never seen a technique with a poor physical expression, salvaged by use of Ki. Have you ever heard anyone talk about O-Sensei's terrible posture?

That reminds me of "The Matrix": Ki can bend the rules, but it can't break them.

[Edited by Chris P. on March 12, 2001 at 06:56pm]

ronin_10562 03-16-2001 07:03 AM

I agree with you that some instructors for lack of teaching skills fall back to correcting the students with mystical terms. Instead of concrete corrections, and the the reason maybe the way traditional Japanese MA are taught. The instructor demonstrates with out saying much and you have to practice untill you get it. Some people will get it physically but not understand it intellectualy. If you can't verbalize what it is then how can you teach it.
I hope this post makes sense.
Walt

akiy 03-16-2001 09:46 AM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
I agree with you that some instructors for lack of teaching skills fall back to correcting the students with mystical terms. Instead of concrete corrections, and the the reason maybe the way traditional Japanese MA are taught
So, for those who believe that "ki" is mystical, how would you go about explaining it?

-- Jun

ronin_10562 03-16-2001 12:09 PM

You are asking the wrong person to to define the mystical Ki. I feel that it is a coodernation of the mind and body. I teach it as such and if you look at the first few posts I give a longer definiton.
I think that some people get involved in Aki arts for the wrong reason, that is to get this super mystical power and astound thier friends with its magical ability. Find a good teacher train consistently and practice the whole art, mentally as well as physically.

Walt

REK 03-16-2001 01:35 PM

Hmmmmm.

As a student of human behavior I am struck by the responses to this post. I wonder if your individual responses would remain the same if you replaced the word "God" for the word "ki" in this thread.

(Note: I am not endorsing any particular position, just wondering if your scientific skepticism extends to your spirituality :D)

Rob


Chris P. 03-16-2001 01:59 PM

Quote:

ronin_10562 wrote:
I agree with you that some instructors for lack of teaching skills fall back to correcting the students with mystical terms. Instead of concrete corrections, and the the reason maybe the way traditional Japanese MA are taught. The instructor demonstrates with out saying much and you have to practice untill you get it. Some people will get it physically but not understand it intellectualy. If you can't verbalize what it is then how can you teach it.
I hope this post makes sense.
Walt

Words are only useful in the context of shared experience. I think any description of the body's subtle forces is necessarily inadequate.

The ancient classics tell us how to practice, but generally not how to conceptualize what is happening. Is this because the old masters were all stupid, or because they thought intellectual "understanding" of the practice was useless? Who am I to disagree? This is not merely a matter of culture, it is a universal truth.

Chris P. 03-16-2001 02:14 PM

Quote:

REK wrote:
Hmmmmm.

As a student of human behavior I am struck by the responses to this post. I wonder if your individual responses would remain the same if you replaced the word "God" for the word "ki" in this thread.

(Note: I am not endorsing any particular position, just wondering if your scientific skepticism extends to your spirituality :D)

I would say exactly the same thing. "Don't try to lecture about God. Come back when you can manifest the truth yourself. Then you have earned the right to talk. Anything else is conjecture."


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