AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Aikido is still violent......? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5822)

Jordan Steele 06-11-2004 09:31 PM

Aikido is still violent......?
 
Ever since I started practicing Aikido, I became distinctly aware that many Aikidoka's believe Aikido is a "non-violent" art that doesn't require hitting people or damaging people. Well, that really is a great idea but hardly realistic and slightly naive. Lets set one thing straight, Aikido is less viloent that some martial arts, but it is still violent. Even ikkyo is violent...you are in physical contact with another person with the intent for them to be under your control or on the ground...just because it is a less violent solution doesn't mean it isn't violent...agree? Also, atemi was/is/and always will be part of Aikido. O'sensei did use atemi frequently. You can't be a great martial artist without atemi. I'm tired of hearing people think they can just dance with an opponent and never strike them or think it's possible to never strike an opponent. Just get over it. Aikido is not a fairy tale, it is simply another martial system that is just as deadly, if not more so than anything else out there. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

gobzhad 06-11-2004 09:46 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
...........if so, can anybody give me a quote or a page from (for example) a Koichi Tohei book in which a punch or a kick is recommended. I would appreciate this SINCERELY.

xuzen 06-12-2004 02:15 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Dear Jordan,

That felt good didn't it, getting that out of your chest. Aikido was a martial art, is still a martial art and will continue to be a martial art, period. If you view aikido as violent; its technique gruesome, barbaric, then do yoga, take up painting or something like that. However, it is through knowing the martial intent of this art that we can control our selfs and civilise it.

Best regards,
Boon.

ruthmc 06-12-2004 02:41 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
According to my dictionary: "Violence - physical force used so as to injure or damage".

Therefore I do not agree that Aikido is violent, as the intent is to NOT injure or damage the attacker.

Ruth

Keith_k 06-12-2004 03:33 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
My dictionary defines violence as the quality of being violent. "Violent" is defined as involving or using great physical force. Of course we could spend all day debating the exact meaning of violence, but I think it is best to try to imagine if a non-martial artist saw an Aikidoka defending his or her self, whether they would consider the technique violent. Depending on the attack and exact technique used to defend against it, I think for the most part an average observer would consider Aikido to be violent. Aikido descends from violent roots. Aikijujutsu was originally developed to kill and it is hard to divorce Aikido completely from this heritage. I have to agree with Boon, if you are looking for enlightenment but are afraid to hurt people, then study meditation or yoga or anything but a martial art. Martial arts are, at the end of it all, developed used for fighting.

Keith

Zoli Elo 06-12-2004 05:50 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Artin Sahakian wrote:
...........if so, can anybody give me a quote or a page from (for example) a Koichi Tohei book in which a punch or a kick is recommended. I would appreciate this SINCERELY.

Easy. Here are a few:

"Atemi should never be omitted when it is essential." Morihiro Saito

"When you thrust forward the edge portion of your Tegatana without bending your arm, the arm will naturally form an arc permitting you 'Ki' power to issue forth." Morihiro Saito

"In a real battle, we must use the power that we have developed in our bodies in the dojo and use it explosively in a instant: we must decide the outcome of the fight at that moment. In that situation atemi becomes very important." Gozo Shioda

Thoses are just a few; I am sure that many more and maybe superior quotes can be found.

DGLinden 06-12-2004 09:37 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
The sole and total purpose of iriminage is to break an attacker's neck. If an individual believes otherwise he/she should find something else to do. Aikido is as violent as any other martial art. It gives us an option to greater or lesser degrees when there is an option, but it is a Military Art.

SeiserL 06-12-2004 09:59 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
IMHO, Aikido "can" still be violent. Its a martial art. It doesn't have to be violent. Its the intent and application that makes a difference.

Jordan Steele 06-12-2004 10:27 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Just to set the record straight, I am not displeased with the fact that Aikido is an extremely martial art nor do I have a problem with the fact that it can hurt people...so I don't think I'll take up yoga anytime soon. I realize that Aikido does the nicest possible thing to an opponent, but throwing somebody on their ass is not peaceful. A few of the joint control techniques are much less violent, but that is their purpose. Throws on the other hand are designed to incapacitate or damage the opponent. It's violent. How could anyone think otherwise.

gobzhad 06-12-2004 11:55 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
To: ZOLI ELO

WOW! Many, many thanx for the quotes from the 2 Senseis that I respect very much. PLEASE see if you can get a few more such sayings. I personally train in American Mixed M.A. because the dojo is walking distance from my home and I am "transportation-challenged". You'd be surprised HOW MANY folks in all M.A.'s INCLUDING Aikidokas have told me and insist that Aikido is a punch-less, kick-less, system. Until I get into Aikido physically, I'll continue to study Osensei's and other Great Aiki Masters' biographies, philosophies and ethical systems. Thanx again.

William Westdyke 06-12-2004 12:30 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Ok, I'm with the aikido is violent opinion. I also believe that it develops a persons spiritual side. But, first and foremost it is a martial art. The "softness" was developed so students could try the killing, bone-breaking, and body jarring moves on one another, again and again. O' sensei spent his whole life pursuing martial arts and because of that developed his spiritual side. Don't mistake that for the opposite. He was a notoriously good fighter who used strikes or "atemi" all the time. In my little aikido world I have heard it time and again. "This is what we do in the dojo; this is what we do in a fight for our lives. You shouldn't be fighting in any other situation." The only restraint we should have to use is to protect our fellow aikidoka.

Just my two cents.

Don_Modesto 06-12-2004 12:54 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Ruth McWilliam wrote:
I do not agree that Aikido is violent, as the intent is to NOT injure or damage the attacker.

Variation on a theme: Self-defense in aikido is the enemy's self. The purpose is to prevent the opponent from soiling his KARMA (Saotome, The Lotus Sutra, McFarlane (below). If you have to break his arm, indeed his neck, to do this, it is still within the aikido ethic:

"Some texts use ethical or karmic dilemmas to illustrate the notion of skillful means and its ethical adaptability. The Ta ch'eng fang pien hui k;583@@ (Skillful means in the Maha- yana) in the Chinese Maharatnakata collection describes how the Buddha, in a previous life, kills a bandit with a spear to save five hundred traders, and to save the man from the consequences of his intended actions (T 310, 11.604~; see CHANG 1983, pp. 456-57). The same text uses the vivid image of concealed sword mastery (used to protect a caravan of traders) as an illustration of the bodhi- sattva's use of skillful means and the "sword of wisdom" (T 310, 11.597b; see CHANG 1983, pp. 435-36).2 The Mahayana Maha- parinirvd?za-satra offers some even more extreme cases. The Buddha in a previous life kills some Brahmins who defame the Dharma, to save them from a worse fate in hell. Earlier, the same stitra approves the principle of taking up arms in defense of the Dharma (T 374, 12.459a460b & 383b-384a; see also DEMIEVILLE 1973, pp. 292-98).

From Mushin, Morals, and Martial Arts- A Discussion of Keenan's YogZicara Critique -
Stewart MCFARLANE, p. 13, http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/.../jjrs/jjrs.htm)

ruthmc 06-12-2004 03:23 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Jordan Steele wrote:
Ever since I started practicing Aikido, I became distinctly aware that many Aikidoka's believe Aikido is a "non-violent" art that doesn't require hitting people or damaging people. Well, that really is a great idea but hardly realistic and slightly naive.

If you think it's ok to damage me during Aikido training because you think you're doing a "violent" martial art, why the hell would I stick around to train with you?

Just curious.

Ruth

George S. Ledyard 06-12-2004 03:59 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Aikido is a mirror. Whatever you have inside you will be what gets reflected in your Aikido.

Aikido is not violent. Men are violent. Aikido is a method of personal development which should point you to the issues on which you need to be working. Doing Aikido shows you for what you are. If that is violent, then your Aikido will be violent Aikido. But it's you who is violent, not the art.

Tharis 06-12-2004 04:40 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
IMHO, as martial arts go, I think Aikido is about as non-violent as it gets. While every technique in Aikido could be applied in a way to inflict long-term injury to uke, it's nage's choice to inflict injury. What makes the technique "aiki" in OSensei's sense is the consideration for uke's well being. Any throw has the potential to cause grievous bodily harm to uke, but the aikidoka has the choice not to. The amount of "violence" applied depends on nage.

Aikido isn't violent, people are violent. The goal of Aikido is to correct the violence in people. Otherwise it'd just be another form of jiu-jutsu

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas

Zoli Elo 06-12-2004 04:40 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Ruth McWilliam wrote:
If you think it's ok to damage me during Aikido training because you think you're doing a "violent" martial art, why the hell would I stick around to train with you?

Just curious.

Ruth

I am not Jordan but my thoughts on the matter I believe coincide with his.

Depending on your actions in the dojo or in any facets of life, others will react in a fairly certain manner. If you attempted to inflict damage on me, it would without a doubt be acceptable for me to return at least an equal level of force. Likewise, kindness would be rewarded with kindness.

As most people prefer to not sustain injuries above a personally defined point, they find other individuals to interact with that have a similar personally defined point. That is the reason why some dojo are "harder" or "softer" then others and why one prefers to train with particular individuals within one's dojo - they are a better match.

Zoli Elo


Here is another quote (How to perform applied irimi nage):

"When the opponent attacks cutting downward from the front, put your right foot a step forward to his left front from an oblique stance, and strike his rib with your right fist. It is necessary, of course, to dodge his attacking line and enter to his left side. Then step out your left foot to his rear, moving your left arm over his arms. Then cut his body downward to his rear with your left handblade hooked at his chin or face. Simultaneously grasp his back collar with your right hand. Movements are same for other side only opposite." Kisshomaru Uyeshiba

Noel 06-12-2004 07:58 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
I gotta agree with Thomas. Aikido allows you to control the level of violence in an encounter. What this level is depends solely on the circumstances, IMO. You could break someone's neck, but you allow them to take a backfall, as an example. In any event, the minimum amount of violence necessary to resolve the situation ought to be used.

As was mentioned above, there is always yoga if you don't like the idea of violence (or ikebana, for that matter.)

My cent-and-a-half,
-Noel

Joe Hansson 06-12-2004 09:16 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Artin Sahakian wrote:
...........if so, can anybody give me a quote or a page from (for example) a Koichi Tohei book in which a punch or a kick is recommended. I would appreciate this SINCERELY.

I can't remember the explicit punch or kick recommendation, but I've seen Tohei sensei use atemi as a part of his techniques in demonstration videos. However, in his book "AIKIDO - The Co-ordination of Mind and Body for Self-Defense" (1966), Tohei sensei writes the following on page 79-80.

"In daily practice, you must learn first to move your body correctly. After you comprehend these movements, in a showdown in real life, if you have a stick, you must make use of it; if you have a sword, you should be able to use it. Anything that comes to hand can be used as a weapon, using its strong points. This is AIKIDO."

and

"...in a real rough-and-tumble battle, though your opponents attack you in any way they choose, you can not complain about but must meet any attack. No holds are barred. You can understand then why there are several thousand kinds of arts in AIKIDO."

p00kiethebear 06-12-2004 11:22 PM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

The sole and total purpose of iriminage is to break an attacker's neck.
That's funny, the purpose behind my technique seems to change frequently depending on what i'm doing.

There is a version of irimi nage that breaks the neck. I've seen another version that's supposed to be a stab to the chest with a tanto. Another one where you grab their hair or their gi and pull them down. Another one that's a cut up into the face with a katana. Another that's a whack on the nose with a jo.

Though we may generalize a motion with words like iriminage and shihonage, when a technique is done DIFFERENTLY it becomes a DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE.

Your shihonage may bring their arm off to an attackers side and break it. Mine brings the arm behind the back and pulls them to the ground. Though we both call it "shihonage", the technique and intent and purpose behind it is different. Do not be so quick to say that x technique has a sole purpose. The purpose may not even be to defend yourself or to even bring an attacker down. (what if my technique's purpose is to give uke a good back stretch? :D )

PeterPhilippson 06-13-2004 05:43 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Ruth McWilliam wrote:
If you think it's ok to damage me during Aikido training because you think you're doing a "violent" martial art, why the hell would I stick around to train with you?

Just curious.

Ruth

I won't damage you if:
You can take the ukemi OR
I hold back AND
We are on a mat rather than a hard street.

If I am practicing with a Dan grade, say, and they do not go with the throw or the nikkyo say, something will break. If they do not move out of the way of an atemi, it will make solid contact. If I am practicing with a beginner, I hold back in a way that would make the defense ineffective against a Dan grade or a street attacker.

Part of the learning is both how to protect yourself from the aikido, and how to judge what is possible for a uke.

Best wishes,

ruthmc 06-13-2004 09:33 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Peter Philippson wrote:
If I am practicing with a Dan grade, say, and they do not go with the throw or the nikkyo say, something will break. If they do not move out of the way of an atemi, it will make solid contact.

And if the dan grade is an older person (over 70)? A young person whose joints are still forming (under 25)? A pregnant woman? Having an off day? Recovering from an injury or an illness? Temporarily distacted by something happening elsewhere on the mat? Tripping over their hakama by accident? .....

I believe that Aikido can be practised safely with anybody yet still remain "street effective" - after all, we're learning the principles of body movement for defence, not just a set of techniques - and in "the street" the adrenaline kick will provide me with the necessary additional force should I require it.

OTOH I don't see anything wrong with a good old honest serious attack and defence, if both parties are willing and able to do so. If nothing else it gives you a good workout :) But I don't subscribe to the attitude that this is the only valid form of training...

Ruth

Hanna B 06-13-2004 10:57 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Jordan Steele wrote:
You can't be a great martial artist without atemi. I'm tired of hearing people think they can just dance with an opponent and never strike them or think it's possible to never strike an opponent.

If you are superior enough, I think this is quite possible. Is this not what osensei did in the famous kendo duel with the navy officer? If you can learn this without striking, if you can choose not to use violence if you have actually never learned to use it - that is another question entirely.

Quote:

Jordan Steele wrote:
Just get over it. Aikido is not a fairy tale, it is simply another martial system that is just as deadly, if not more so than anything else out there. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

I have to respectfully disagree. Aikido is a gendai budo in which most of the deadliness has been taken out of the system. Aikido is not what the samurai used; it is developed from samurai technique, but many things have been changed for safety, for protection of uke etc. If you think striking is a good tool for your purposed, then you can choose another type of Japanese jujutsu or jujutsu-derived system where they strike more frequently to make technique easier, and make life a whole lot easier for yourself.

To me, using a minimum of violence is kind of the difinition of aikido - in the ideal case, no violence at all or in a way so that uke does not feel violated. Ideal cases seldom happens, though.

Qatana 06-13-2004 11:18 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
I really do not understand why people are saying yoge instead of aikido. Yoga is an individual practice created to allow the body to sit for long periods of time in meditation. Aikido is a partnered art created to end or eliminate conflict with the least amount of physical damage.
No amount of yoga practice is going to teach anybody how to relate to other people with the idea of conflict resolution as the intended outcome.
That said, there are partnered yoga forms that will contribute to your aikido in terms of maai & blending...

Don_Modesto 06-13-2004 11:37 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote:
If you are superior enough, I think this is quite possible. Is this not what osensei did in the famous kendo duel with the navy officer? If you can learn this without striking, if you can choose not to use violence if you have actually never learned to use it - that is another question entirely.

Perhaps some of you have seen the Tohei video put up on Aikido Journal a couple weeks ago. I was recently at the home of the fellow who filmed that and we watched another film he'd made of Saotome Mitsugi doing a 3-4 person RANDORI in the 70's. It was very martial with many strikes from Saotome. One of the UKE's, now a teacher in St. Pete, told me that he was knocked out in that demo.

Daryl, the film-maker, remarked that Saotome had evolved and recalled a 3 person he demonstrated after a DAN test in Orlando a year or two ago. In that RANDORI, Saotome had "walked through the angry crowd". He was cool and composed and seemingly just strolled casually through all the attackers with little effort and no ATEMI. The assembled were stunned at the honesty and effortlessness of it. Something to aspire to.

Jordan Steele 06-13-2004 11:54 AM

Re: Aikido is still violent......?
 
Maybe I worded myself incorrectly previously. In no way does my stance on the fact that Aikido is violent reflect my personality. I train vigorously, but not violently and I don't like to train with people who train violently and wrecklessly. I am merely trying to say (not convince) that Aikido is still violent. Also, it is my understanding that O'sensei presented Aikido to the public as peaceful and gentle art, but during uchideshi training, he literally beat the junk out of the students. There is a big difference between what O'sensei wanted Aikido to be and what it actually was/is. Also, I understand Aikido can appear to be peaceful and soft in the dojo, but there isn't one untrained person I know that would take a forward roll from a kokyunage or something. Most people would face plant themselves or land on their shoulder...something painful. That's violent regardless of nages mental state at the time. Once again this is only my observation and has nothing to do with how I train or my general disposition.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:50 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.