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Erik 02-14-2001 10:57 PM

I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!

wildaikido 02-15-2001 12:39 AM

In our school we do a diagonal roll over ukes arms and kick him in the head as we go over, this may be what your talking about but you did not give a lot of info.

Erik 02-15-2001 01:36 AM

Quote:

wildaikido wrote:
In our school we do a diagonal roll over ukes arms and kick him in the head as we go over, this may be what your talking about but you did not give a lot of info.
I must admit that I wasn't thinking of kicking them in the head. I guess it's vague because the execution is vague to me. All I really have for more specifics is that 2 high falls happen one right after the other. The only 2 ways I can think of doing this involve performing kote gaeshi on the kote gaeshi which scares me on anything but a super aware partner or I position the fall to somehow unbalance the person doing the throwing. I think it's more the latter than the former I'm after but to be truthful I'm not really sure.

Matt Banks 02-15-2001 03:41 AM

kashiwaza is what its called. Im sorry I justed wanted to say that if someone didnt know, ''ya learn something every day''. Hmmm from koetgashi. If a tecnique is put on properly than kashiwaza cannot be applied. The only one I can think of from kotegashi is before tory gets it on you raise your arm to your centre , slip your hips under him and do some a hip throw.

andrew 02-15-2001 05:41 AM

Quote:

Erik wrote:
I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!

You keep a hold of him. I've no details, I've just seen it demonstrated. Like Matt said, you can only do it if tore messes up.
You can counter koetgaeshi with another kotegaeshi if you're brought in too tight to tore, applying on the hand he uses to support. If both of you are terrible bad at applying technique but terrible good at reversing it you could do this reversal over and back for ever and ever without anybody ever winning.
Ooops, I've said too much again...
andrew

Erik 02-15-2001 09:52 AM

Quote:

kashiwaza is what its called. Im sorry I justed wanted to say that if someone didnt know, ''ya learn something every day''.
Actually I believe that should be kaeshi waza, so I guess you are right, you do learn something every day.

For the record, I believe kashi refers to legs.

Quote:

Andrew wrote:
You keep a hold of him. I've no details, I've just seen it demonstrated.
Therein lies the problem. I have heard of folks who actually do kote gaeshi by launching themselves into the throw. This is what led me to think of that as a possibility but I agree it's probably not the one which I'm looking for nor do I think it's what I've seen.

I also agree on the sentiment of not being able to counter someone who does perfect technique and flying through the air isn't my first choice of counter. But dammit, it's got serious style points and I want to know how to do it.

andrew 02-15-2001 10:00 AM

[quote]Erik wrote:
Quote:

does perfect technique and flying through the air isn't my first choice of counter. But dammit, it's got serious style points and I want to know how to do it.
Are you referring here to a uke who maintains contact throughout and pulls down tore after landing, or is something happening middair?

I think, if you keep training, you'll simply have a notion one day and be able to do it..
andrew

akiy 02-15-2001 10:19 AM

Quote:

Erik wrote:
For the record, I believe kashi refers to legs.
That would be "ashi." "Kashi" can refer either to "oak" or "confectionary." Unless there's some kind of set of techniques involving the two...

As far as that particular kotegaeshi counter goes of uke launching nage while uke is still in the air, I think it's more for show. We've practiced the counter for kotegaeshi wherein you take the backfall or breakfall while continuing to extend nage's motion of the kotegaeshi to break their balance to throw them. The same can be done for shihonage and (although I haven't tried this one out yet) kaitennage.

I don't know if it's a technique I'm going to be trying "on the street," but I think it helps illustrate the fact that falling and rolling doesn't necessarily mean that uke is no longer a threat and that breaking nage's balance can happen in the most interesting places...

-- Jun

Erik 02-15-2001 10:31 AM

Quote:

andrew wrote:
Are you referring here to a uke who maintains contact throughout and pulls down tore after landing, or is something happening middair?
I'm not exactly sure. I think it begins in mid-air and finishes on the ground, so perhaps both. You would have to maintain contact. As I think more on it, I'm guessing there is a placement issue that creates extension or leverage which is used to displace center or helps to displace it creating the throw.

Quote:

I think, if you keep training, you'll simply have a notion one day and be able to do it..
andrew
Agreed, but I'm still gonna ask.

Erik 02-15-2001 10:51 AM

Quote:

akiy wrote:
That would be "ashi." "Kashi" can refer either to "oak" or "confectionary." Unless there's some kind of set of techniques involving the two...
<snipped some stuff of mine>

I actually did a search on kashi, just in case Matt was referring to something obscure, and I hit legs several times, including

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dictionary/bodyparts.html

and these guys say the same thing and more actually.

http://www.trussel.com/f_nih.htm

They also include the following translations:

noncommissioned officer
the legs; lower extremities
being granted; granting; imperial grant
asphyxiation; apparent death
false tooth
(a-no) visibility
song lyrics; words of a song
fish market; riverside; river bank
Fahrenheit
pastry
evergreen oak
loan; lending

Quote:

As far as that particular kotegaeshi counter goes of uke launching nage while uke is still in the air, I think it's more for show.
I completely agree but I still want to know how to do it.

[Edited by Erik on February 15, 2001 at 12:26pm]

Guest5678 02-15-2001 01:13 PM

VERY tricky ukemi......
 
Erik,

When nage does (poor) kote gaeshi (only way this really works), grab nage's wrist with your free hand just prior to entering your break fall escape, keep contact between his palm and your hand (the one that they did kote on). As you go over, rotate the hand nage did kote on to a forward direction and wrap around nage's hand. The turning motion of the breakfall will also turn nage's wrist over. Your hand will now be on the back of nage's and you still have his wrist with your other hand. Nage then has to break fall over you to escape. You have to land in the right position to start with and it's very hard to explain this in text. Also, beware that the force of the first break fall can cause extreme damage to nage's wrist if they are not expecting this move. Basically, you have to breakfall without any asistance from your arms or hands. Sounds much easier than it is. While this looks really cool, I would not recommend it as there is a very high potential for injury to both people. I hope this helps.......

Please train safe,

Dan P. - Mongo

BC 02-15-2001 02:18 PM

I've also seen this kind of counter, but with back rolls instead of breakfalls. Uke rolls because nage doesn't keep uke's elbow vertical, then comes up out of the roll and counters with their own kotegaeshi. Just a couple of weeks ago, one of my sempai did this to me when he busted me doing a sloppy kotegaeshi. :eek: One of the more surprising reversals I've encountered... :)

Erik 02-15-2001 11:13 PM

Re: VERY tricky ukemi......
 
Quote:

Mongo wrote:
Erik,

When nage does (poor) kote gaeshi (only way this really works), grab nage's wrist with your free hand just prior to entering your break fall escape, keep contact between his palm and your hand (the one that they did kote on). As you go over, rotate the hand nage did kote on to a forward direction and wrap around nage's hand. The turning motion of the breakfall will also turn nage's wrist over. Your hand will now be on the back of nage's and you still have his wrist with your other hand. Nage then has to break fall over you to escape. You have to land in the right position to start with and it's very hard to explain this in text. Also, beware that the force of the first break fall can cause extreme damage to nage's wrist if they are not expecting this move. Basically, you have to breakfall without any asistance from your arms or hands. Sounds much easier than it is. While this looks really cool, I would not recommend it as there is a very high potential for injury to both people. I hope this helps.......

Please train safe,

Dan P. - Mongo
Thank you very much and I'll be safe. I really only have one person that I would trust with this anyway. Even there we will do heavy choreography, if we even do it, because truthfully I'm the only one at our dojo that I'm certain can take the described ukemi. But if nothing else you've satisfied a yearning in me.

[Edited by Erik on February 15, 2001 at 11:16pm]

Aikilove 02-16-2001 09:06 AM

I know two others on kote geishi...
1. Just when uke(nage?) start with the throw you, nage(uke?), step out and back of uke and at the same time close your fist and turn it in the opposite direction, and you will end up in a ikkyu :cool:
2. Just in the right moment you overtake uke's(nage's) throwing motion and step in front and then in to do iriminage. It feels great when you get this one in.

! If you train keishi waza then, try to do different kind without telling your partner, that you will have your moment of surprise!:p

Guest5678 02-16-2001 09:22 AM

Quote:

BC wrote:
I've also seen this kind of counter, but with back rolls instead of breakfalls. Uke rolls because nage doesn't keep uke's elbow vertical, then comes up out of the roll and counters with their own kotegaeshi. Just a couple of weeks ago, one of my sempai did this to me when he busted me doing a sloppy kotegaeshi. :eek: One of the more surprising reversals I've encountered... :)
BC,

Yeah, I've seen it with back rolls but haven't tried it. Appears harder to hold onto nage. Of course the issue with the other way is nage has to enter his escape prior to uke landing, so timing is very critical. Either way, I'd still rather just kick 'em in the back of the head on the way over, and roll back up. he-he-he! What fun we have, huh?!

Train hard, Play hard, live easy.

Dan P. - Mongo

andrew 02-16-2001 11:18 AM

Quote:

Aikilove wrote:
, and you will end up in a ikkyu :cool:

Sounds painful. What if there's no ikkyu around? Would a yonkyu do, cos we've loads of them at the moment.

andrew

(sorry!)

DiNalt 02-16-2001 01:26 PM

Teehee :)

I was waiting for someone to say that.

Quote:

andrew wrote:
Quote:

Aikilove wrote:
, and you will end up in a ikkyu :cool:

Sounds painful. What if there's no ikkyu around? Would a yonkyu do, cos we've loads of them at the moment.

andrew

(sorry!)


BC 02-16-2001 01:54 PM

What if you're already an ikkyu, and you end up in a gokyu? :)

Aikilove 02-18-2001 06:22 AM

Nice one! 'hope you all understand what I mean anyway ;)

George S. Ledyard 02-19-2001 07:27 AM

Counter
 
Quote:

Erik wrote:
I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!

Koregaeshi into Kotegaeshi Reversal

The one you are most likely referring to involves this:
The nage has a grabbing hand (grabbing the wrist) and a matching hand (placed on the back of the hand); uke takes his free hand and grabs the wrist of nage's matching hand, he attempts to fall inside the arc of projection of the kotegaeshi, as he lands he twists away from nage, applies his own matching hand and throws the nage over his body by over extending him (note that uke's body should be right up against the legs of nage to prevent any balancing step being made>

andrew 02-19-2001 08:02 AM

Re: Counter
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:
(placed on the back of the hand); uke takes his free hand and grabs the wrist of nage's matching hand, he attempts to fall inside the arc of projection of the kotegaeshi
Em... Is that with a kotegaeshi grab or just taking the wrist?

andrew

javi-o 03-09-2001 08:40 AM

[quote]Erik wrote:
[b]I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

I think I know what you refer to. That counter(kaeshi waza as someone has correctly said) could be one kick to the head of the KG performer(uke/tori?) or extending his arm in order to pull him of balance. Bein the former the most benevolent. The first, indeed, can cause serious damage to tori(/uke?). I have once saw two friends practicing randori and one of them, who was performing gotegaeshi, was knoked down by a the kick counter. It is very dangerous for both uke and tori to perform such a technique, there are other counters to kote gaeshi. Also, kothe gaeshi when performed in a downward manner has but litlle chances to escape.

take care of your selves and donīt do circus-like things because they look or feel fancy.

bye

Javier

ian 03-09-2001 08:57 AM

I've had a slight change of view over kotegaeshi over the past few months. It is often done with the hip going in very quickly and a large circular throw. This enables the counter (as described) with the kick to the head - also, if the kotegaeshi is too slow it results in uke either hitting nage with his other hand or just charging in to nage.

An alternative is to withdraw ukes arm to the side (as you would normally, turning him around). But well before his centre is lined up with his own wrist you put kote-gaeshi on. This doesn't look as pretty and usually results in a backward ukemi rather than forward ukemi for uke. However it prevents being kicked, or hit. It also prevents uke getting control of your wrist for the counter, as his centre never comes in line with his arm (and therefore he is weak). In terms of real application, you cannot get a throw out of this and you would have to either cause them to sit down with the pain (unlikely I think) or break the wrist.

Ian


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