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wildaikido 02-12-2001 09:17 AM

Okay before anyone says anything about my spelling (which can be pretty bad) the title is spelt correct. What I want to discuss is foot techniques in Aikido (Ashi Waza). In the style I practice (Yoseikan) there are a number of foot or leg techniques. However in no Aikido book or other school I have been to has there been any mention of ashi waza. All I have found is a very odd article on aiki faq (http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/a_section32.html) which has an explanation why there are no ashi waza in Aikido but I would like to know more, and what all the different styles of Aikido have to say about ashi waza.

ian 02-12-2001 10:34 AM

Other than those things stated it may come down to this:
Ueshiba is said that 'the mind of man is in the hands and the spirit of the universe is in the feet'. Which can be variously interpreted but may be taken to mean that the real movement in aikido is the foot work (i.e. moving & blending), not a hand grappling art.

If you kick anyone you generally put yourself in a position of limiting your body movement (hoping quickly in different directions is difficult to do). Therefore it reduces your ability to blend or react to anything uke does.

I don't know if this is true, but it seems to make sense to me.

Ian

akiy 02-12-2001 11:40 AM

I've been exposed to doing sweeps and such during aikido training. They're quite useful, I think, when used in conjunction with the regular principles of kuzushi and such. I'll also sometimes use kicks to show uke (or nage) when they're open, too...

-- Jun

mj 02-12-2001 12:49 PM

Hi. I am presuming that you mean footsweeps when you say ashi-waza. In Judo footsweeps are choishi-waza, that is, timing and rhythm techniques. Aren't ALL aiki techniques choishi-waza? As one of my old Judo teachers used to say... 'There are 5 ways to win a (judo) fight standing up, footsweeps are a win for free!' So, they probably are aiki, except easier - if you can do them. Not kicks, though.

wildaikido 02-12-2001 10:16 PM

Thanks for the replies (but I want more discussion please). I wasn't actually thinking of kicks, but a kick can be a good atemi it may be something uke doesn't expect. What I was referring to where 'judo techniques' like Osotogari, Diashi Harai and others. A technique like Osotogari is quick and almost effortless and if you have more than one uke foot techniques are good at getting ukes to the ground fast.
The article that I mentioned seems very strange to me suggesting that its primitive to use ones feet, its like western boxing not using feet because English gentlemen thought if was dirty and the French did it (please note I am English). Why would you limit your possibilities?

PS. if you don't know ashi waza see below it shows some simple drawings of some judo throws some are ashi waza (if nage is using his foot/leg than it is probably ashi waza).
http://www.fortunecity.com/athena/velvet/1228/id55.htm

[Edited by wildaikido on February 12, 2001 at 10:20pm]

Erik 02-13-2001 12:03 AM

Feet without dignity
 
I'm gonna lie awake tonight giggling about this one. Those first few paragraphs are hilarious and sadly that appears to be right out of Hombu.

I've been exposed to minor bits and pieces of what I think you are talking about. It's very hit and miss in my experience and usually used to displace center not sweep as I'm guessing Judo would probably do it. I've also done a small handful of things which involve standing on uke's foot or hand which appeals to my baser self. I wouldn't attribute any of this to a formal style however. It just seems to come up occasionally.

To tell the truth, I'd completely forgotten all about the foot stuff until you brought it up. Thank you for that as you've given me some ideas and a laugh as well.

Dan Hover 02-13-2001 09:29 AM

depends on the shihan in so far as Deashi Barai and ashi waza like that. But in most ukemi you take a step back with the inside leg, to prevent those kinds of clips, or reaps. Although I teach sutemi waza in class, it is not really part of aikido curriculum. Although a lot of ashi waza that was in jujutsu curriculum like kicking were looked down upon by the sword based arts, Aikido being "one" of them. As these were viewed as the techniques of the "commoners". Although Personnally I feel as these waza should be stressed to at least advanced students as a good example of henka waza. Also most Judo techniques require a judicious use of physical strength and for Nage to physically grab Uke. Which in turn somewhat changes the roles of uke/nage as traditionally viewed in Aikido. Just some Food for thought.

akiy 02-13-2001 10:17 AM

Quote:

Dan Hover wrote:
Also most Judo techniques require a judicious use of physical strength and for Nage to physically grab Uke.
I've only had very minimal contact with judo people but have been lucky to have been thrown around by an 8th dan. The only thing I felt while being thrown around was a tap on my ankle with his foot and I was going over into a breakfall...

-- Jun

mj 02-13-2001 11:35 AM

Dan Hover wrote:
Also most Judo techniques require a judicious use of physical strength and for Nage to physically grab Uke.

A real footsweep needs no strentgh apart from that required to move your own foot. And you don't need to grab, you only need motion from the other person. http://www.fortunecity.com/athena/velvet/1228/id55.htm is weird, there is only one ashi-waza really, and it pretty much looks like a kick in the drawing. To be beaten in judo by a sweep, is considered the worst, most careless way to lose. I think in aiki it is considered bad form not to have both feet firmly on the ground on completion of a 'technique', due to the multi-attacker attitude. However, I have seen many kidoka who have a weakness for being swept. But then again I, and every judoka I know, have also been swept. This is not meant to be critical of any art or person. Ashi-waza are a good friend to have

Dan Hover 02-13-2001 12:24 PM

I said most techniques not all, lets not get all Jim23 on me. ;). in so far as Ashi waza MOST rely on timing to match the sweeping foot of tori with that of uke.

mj 02-13-2001 12:58 PM

Agreed. I thought that people were maybe, (wrongly,) seeing sweeps as an aggressive application. But it's obvious you know that it's not. You swooped on my sweep as I swayed and you swept me.

wildaikido 02-14-2001 01:27 AM

Thank you for more posts.
To Dan
All of the ashi waza we do in our dojo is from mostly shomen uchi or different tsuki's, and you have to grab uke to do most techniques in aikido. We also use very little strength in all of the ashi waza, you can use strength and uke falls a lot harder and faster.
To MJ
When I have finished my ashi waza I must admit that both my feet are firmly planted on the ground.

We may train in using these techniques against each other, but when protecting our selves on the street it does not matter if in competition it hard to beat someone with a sweep because the person on the street should not be another budoka (well you think not where smarter than that, but it is quite easy to tell if someone knows what their doing) so an effective technique is still useful. It seems to me that most beleive ashi waza to be effective techniques.

PS Here is an example of what we might do
Kosotogari (minor outer reaping)
Stand in hadari hanmari (left stance). Uke attacks migi (right) shomen uchi, you receive the attack moving irimi to the outside and catch the strike with both hands (left at the elbow and right at the hand) bring it down and around to your waist. You should look like the beginning of tori fune (rowing exercise) but in shizentai (natural stance). Now ukes arm is directed down to his back right corner (like a sumi otoshi) with your left tegatana 'cutting' into his elbow joint. Now uke is unbalanced your weight comes onto your right foot and the sole of your left foot sweeps ukes right ankle forward and outward in a circular motion.


[Edited by wildaikido on February 14, 2001 at 01:29am]

darin 02-14-2001 03:38 AM

Quote:

wildaikido wrote:
Okay before anyone says anything about my spelling (which can be pretty bad) the title is spelt correct. What I want to discuss is foot techniques in Aikido (Ashi Waza). In the style I practice (Yoseikan) there are a number of foot or leg techniques. However in no Aikido book or other school I have been to has there been any mention of ashi waza. All I have found is a very odd article on aiki faq (http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/a_section32.html) which has an explanation why there are no ashi waza in Aikido but I would like to know more, and what all the different styles of Aikido have to say about ashi waza.
I also do Yoseikan Aikido. I too noticed that aikido in general doesn't have foot sweeps, reaps etc. I know that Mochizuki got these techniques from karate, judo and jujitsu.

I can't speak for other schools but I have seen some ashi tori in most aikido schools I have been to, usually defences against kicks.

Yoseikan randori is more rough than traditional aikido. We are allowed to wrestle, resist, punch and kick. Sometimes its hard to use hand techniques so sweeps are more practical.



Aikilove 02-14-2001 06:30 AM

At a seminar once in Sweden, Tomita Sensei explained about Takemusi Aiki. He said that if you trained long enough you should be able to use the principles and begin to see the endless amount of techniques that one can use in any given moment.

He proceeded in showing an interesting techniqe against Yokomen uchi. He simply step of the line outside and down, allmost falling flat on his side, and used his feet to trapp ukes front leg, puching on the backside of the knee and holding the frontside of the lower leg with his other foot. This made uke fall flat on his front! I remember something similar from Jujutsu but hadn't seen it in Aikido before.


[Edited by Aikilove on February 14, 2001 at 06:34am]


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