AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Weapons (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Jo Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5626)

kocakb 05-20-2004 05:51 AM

Jo Training
 
Hi to everyone, I am a 4.th Kyu aikidoka, training in Istanbul. In our dojo, we do not train with Jo so often (only 2-3 times in 6 months yet). I would like to learn using jo more intensively. It is also good to progress the balance and tai-sabaki, what's more, you can train by yourself even if there is no uke to train with you, I think.
As I know, there is a Jo Kata in Aikido with 31 moves. Would it be good start point to learn these figures first? How could I improve this technique by myself...How is it in other Dojo's, do you train with jo often ?
I am happy to join aikiweb, greatings to all from Turkey :)

PaulieWalnuts 05-20-2004 06:10 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
my best advice if you want to learn aiki jo including the 31 kata is find an Iwama school, and you just happen to have the head of iwama turkey on your door step his name is mehmet dodu. www.iwama-ryu-tr.org

he is really good. if you see him tell him stefen from scotland says hi

ian 05-20-2004 11:27 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
I have never really seen a strong relationship between jo and taijitsu. Could anyone explain it to me? There is movement off centre line and jp disarming is superficially similar, but the way your arms move and the way the body is held seem very different. As with sword work, maybe the best practise is the basic tuski movement (whilst moving off centre line), to teach entering, moving off centre line and to develop striking ability. However, surely the bokken does this better?

Ian

PaulieWalnuts 06-01-2004 01:43 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
The jo is the same as taijutsu. You need to spend afew years learning the jo saburi to understand the riai. for example tski gedan gaieshi is the exact same body movment sa irimi nage.
You are learning to move your whole nody with a jo, with ken you learn hanmi and koyu. these are some of the very basic ideas behind. remember Aikido without ken / jo is only taijutsu aikido has three main principles

okazdal 02-17-2005 05:07 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Hello,
I am a student of Mehmet Sıtkı Doğu who leads Iwama Ryu Turkey. Thanks for mentioning our web site on the forums. We have keiko everyday except sunday, 07:00-08:00 in the morning and 19:30-21:30 evenings and 11:00-12:30 on saturdays. There is bukiwaza (aikiken and aikijo) training in both morning and evening keiko.
Btw, dear Steffen, i will make sure my instructor receives your hi. :)

http://www.iwama-ryu-tr.org

Osman Kazdal

Dazzler 02-17-2005 05:51 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Aiki ken, aiki jo ...even aiki rolled up newspaper.

All of these weapons are just an extension of tai jutsu work.

If there is a difference then at least 1 will not be aikido.

They provide opportunities to develop kamae, maai, shisei, kokyu, irimi, tenkan, tai sabaki, kokyu-ryoku and any other bases appropriate to any style of aikido.

They provide opportunities for Tori to apply yang to ukes ying or ying to ukes yang. In short...blending.

The differences in the properties of the tools require adjustments to these bases...eg maai..distance becomes more critical when you are only 4 feet from a sword weilding uke. Empty handed uke would make this a safer distance.

Bokken has a cutting, slicing action that gives it extra features to work with. Jo can be used from either end. Rolled up newspaper can be jammed up ukes snout from close range in James Bond fashion...

These differences enhance practice but it should still be aikido whether with or without weapons.

Iwama ryu is an excellent suggestion for weapons practice since this is their speciality as handed down by Saito Sensei.

However they do not have a monopoly on weapons and you can find that if your practice is more flowing embodying spiral movement then some adaptation to align the 2 may be required as you reach higher levels of understanding and ability.

A good starting place none the less.

Just my thoughts ....Cheers!

D

Ed OConnor 02-17-2005 07:28 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Perhaps you should start with the 13 kata? There are less movements but the variety of the movements is greater. The 31 has a ton o' yokomens.

Aside for those of you in the NYC megalopolis:
O'Connor Sensei (no relation other than being my teacher) is hosting a Kumijo seminar on 3/12/2005 @ ACNJ - Morristown. Sensei hopes to cover the 10 forms. Familiarity with the basic jo suburi is a requirement. Call for info. http://www.aikidocenters.com.

Peace,
eD

Tim Griffiths 02-17-2005 07:46 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Quote:

budo child wrote:
The jo is the same as taijutsu. You need to spend afew years learning the jo saburi to understand the riai. for example tski gedan gaieshi is the exact same body movment sa irimi nage.

Err...nope. At least, I hope not. If I brought my back hand that far behind me in iriminage I'd hope uke would have me flat on the mat with a couple of seconds. Plus iriminage at waist height (as gedan gaeshi) is less effective then at, say, neck/head height. Its not even the same principle, as the initial retraction is much more linear in the gaeshi.

Quote:

budo child wrote:
You are learning to move your whole nody with a jo, with ken you learn hanmi and koyu. these are some of the very basic ideas behind. remember Aikido without ken / jo is only taijutsu aikido has three main principles

ONLY taijitsu?
If aikido has three main principles, I don't think they are taijitsu, ken and jo.

Your right about using the whole body, though - and this IMO is the main benefit - to practice movements with a balanced relaxed body, and keeping the hands working together. The movements are NOT the same as in taijitsu, but the principles of the movement are. Practicing jo is another way to explore these principles.

Train well,

Tim

ian 02-17-2005 07:48 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Having gone through some intensive kata training at one point I would say, always practice the basics the most. I realised I could do great kata but I had no power in my jo thrusts. I think a good practice is to do tsuki forwards which leads into a tsuki backwards, which leads into a tsuki fowards (keeping feet still). Do about 100 on each side (but warm up first!) with good control and power. Also, striking against a wooden board or rubber tied to a tree (the tree itself can be killed if you remove all the bark through excessive striking). You may have seen Ueshiba practicing with the jo against some samurai armour tied to a tree!

Ian

PS I don't train with jo much as I believe bokken relates far better to understanding unarmed aikido

PPS I would agree with Tim in that, although there are superficial similarities between jo and taijitsu I don't think the similarities are very strong. Saying this, when I was once attacked for real I moved off centre line and struck with my fist and the movement felt exactly the same as a jo thrust!

SeiserL 02-17-2005 08:25 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
IMHO, focus on your training and what you are learning, not what your aren't. As you prgress you may want to supplement and learn from others, but first get a really solid foundation in basics.

Dazzler 02-17-2005 08:47 AM

Re: Jo Training
 
Quote:

Tim Griffiths wrote:
Err...nope. At least, I hope not. If I brought my back hand that far behind me in iriminage I'd hope uke would have me flat on the mat with a couple of seconds. Plus iriminage at waist height (as gedan gaeshi) is less effective then at, say, neck/head height. Its not even the same principle, as the initial retraction is much more linear in the gaeshi.
Tim

Actually Tim, Budochild is correct.

Visualise a yokomen attack against gyaku hamni posture, counter the yokomen by entering with a strike to the face.

Thats your Tsuki part.

From here withdraw to an offline position and take control of ukes attacking arm with your striking hand.

That is effectively the Gedan part.

Now sweep this arm up and step forward into irimi nage postion. Irimi nage omote is possible from here and you've pretty much moved in the the same manner as tsuki gedan gaeshi.

Its also exactly the same as a lead hand jab to the face followed by a rear leg roundhouse kick to the thigh or knee.

As you say...principles are most important. As bruce Lee would say 'no fixed forms'.

Cheers

D

bryce_montgomery 02-17-2005 02:25 PM

Re: Jo Training
 
I've heard it explained that O'Sensei developed a lot of the technique from the sword and jo...for instance, O'Sensei developed the hand movements from the sword, the way the ken moves is similar to the arms move in such techniques as yonkyo or whatnot...and the foot movements developed from jo, as seen in the 31-count jo kata...

That's what I've heard and it makes some sense to me...

Bryce


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:58 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.