AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5401)

Jeremy Gelman 04-22-2004 08:25 PM

Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Have any of you trained intensively against high kicks? Whado you do in terms of aikido if someone skilled is kicking at your head or neck? Like those guys in tae kwon do....

I've never been taught how to do aikido against high kicks so do any of you have anything to say on this matter?

I do know that high kicking is supposed to be very impractical in most cases. Bruce Lee said that "A kick to the head is like a punch to the foot". Still, what if...

I've seen Steven Seagal do some aikido stuff against kicks but it isn't clear to me what to do!

Erik 04-22-2004 09:14 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Rant to follow.

The politically correct answer is that they are impractical and we don't need to train against no 'steenkin' kicks. The second politically correct answer is that they are too dangerous and we'd rend our limbs from our bodies. There is also some weird cultural mojo that seems to come into play here with feet being less spiritually pure, seriously, than hands, or whatever.

Maybe that wasn't too politically correct? :D

The reality is that your experience is about normal and that people, for the most part*, aren't teaching it. When challenged on it they almost always fall back to my earlier comments but really they can't substantially back up their comments because even if they are accurate there's no tested substance. It's just a hollow repeating of the mantra.

Just to simulate the problem I know that Hans Goto did some work with another local MA teacher and they put together a program on kicking. They even got themselves written up in Aikido Journal and according to Hans Goto they didn't get any interest from the aikido world.

"Thud" is the sound of one foot kicking in the aikido world.

I don't know how many classes I've attended over the years but lets say 2,000 for this rant and if I said 10 of them had anything, and I mean even 15 minutes, to do with kicking I'd be exaggerating. Has anyone even demonstrated against a kick in the Aiki-Expo? Even once?

I suppose if it doesn't bother anyone else then it shouldn't bother me.

Here endeth the rant.

Jeremy, I can offer you some answers but now I'm much too depressed. :D

* I know some of you practice kicks and some styles actually even have it included in the curriculum but honestly everyone here knows of what I speak.

MitchMZ 04-22-2004 09:20 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
If you blend with the attack just like an arm(yokomenuchi, tsuki, etc.) and turn your center accordingly I'm sure you could very easily throw someone from their leg, especially if its up high. Not to mention many locks also work against the foot/ankle area. Really, I don't see how its so different from an arm. More powerful yes...but I think hands are also quicker. Aikido also does a very good job of teaching people to postion themselves so they arent all that susceptible to kicks in the first place.

shihonage 04-22-2004 09:30 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Spar with someone and come to your own conclusions.

Benjie Lu 04-22-2004 09:59 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
In our dojo, we practice extensively against mae giri or kicking attacks, high kicks, low kicks and all other kicks in between.

In my experience, high kicks are generally less effective than say a low thigh kick. Again, we emphasize ma-ai and irimi when dealing with kicks. I think it is good practice for aikidoka to learn how to defend against kicks because other martial artists who are very skilled in kicks can cause serious injury from the force of their kicks and their sheer speed when delivered by a skilled MA makes them very difficult to anticipate.

We had a visiting yudansha once and he was kind of shocked when during randori he was attacked by multiple kicks by one of our resident TKD expert. Needless to say, the speed and execution of the kicks left him with little options except to try to parry the kicks which is inherently dangerous because of the power and weight behind the kicks.

IMHO, there is a serious dearth of practice/techniques against kicks in aikido and I feel that this is a serious gap in aikido repertoire. Again, this is is just my opinion.

aikiSteve 04-22-2004 10:16 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
How do you take falls as an uke when kicking? i find myself sort of hopping up to flip my foot over. Is there a better way?

Steve

L. Camejo 04-22-2004 11:25 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Most times when we train against kicks in our dojo it's against mae geri (front kick). When I do demos I throw in a few responses to roundhouse, spinning back hook, side kick etc. as long as I have one of my TKD or Karate students.:)

In my experience, Sen timing and strong entering techniques (irimi nage and other atemi waza) tend to handle the majority of kicks pretty easily. I personally view combos (as done in TKD) as a string of single attacks, the key is to enter on the first and eliminate the possibility of the follow ups, otherwise, timing and ma ai control is critical to utilise the gap between combo kicks to create an opportunity for technique.

Generally we do not train against high kicks very often, merely because most folks are not able to execute the high kicks well and with control and more importantly, the higher the kick the higher and harder the ukemi as the body is supported by only one foot and is VERY easy to throw. In a class of relative beginners this may compromise the safety factor. In my experience everyone who has received a medium force Aikido technique from a high kick has had at least a minor whiplash effect on their neck (from the sheer shock with the ground) after ushiro ukemi, and this is from folks who have pretty solid ukemi experience. It is becoming a more regular element of our practice though as people's kicking skills are improved, and entering against a front kick (or chamber) is a part of the basics of every class during exercises like Gassho Uke, Seichusen no Bogyo and even Tai Sabaki practice.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

David Yap 04-23-2004 01:40 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Quote:

Benjie Lu wrote:
In our dojo, we practice extensively against mae giri or kicking attacks, high kicks, low kicks and all other kicks in between.

In my experience, high kicks are generally less effective than say a low thigh kick. Again, we emphasize ma-ai and irimi when dealing with kicks. I think it is good practice for aikidoka to learn how to defend against kicks because other martial artists who are very skilled in kicks can cause serious injury from the force of their kicks and their sheer speed when delivered by a skilled MA makes them very difficult to anticipate.

Hi Jeremy,

I agree wholeheartly with Benjie that ma-ai (distancing) is the emphasis when kick attacks are concerned. Generally, skilled karate-ka and TKD exponents will only kick when the target is already within range which is logical since the success rate is higher than moving into range to kick as the target could be moving away or moving in to jam the kick.

Being the sole yudansha in karate in my class, I was always called upon to do attack my sensei with a maegiri. From where I was standing, I always knew that it was a waste of my effort - the distance was not right, I had to charge in to kick - thus telegraphed my intention which I have been trained not to so do. Times when he was within my kicking range, I would kick in an honest but controlled manner allowing him to move and execute his countering technique. I can honestly tell you that I could have easily brought him down with my kicks if I wanted to. I am sure that many of you guys who have been trained in competition fights will agree that the speed of the maegiri and reverse punch is not to be underestimated especially when the attacker is within the striking range.

I think my teacher was aware of this and he reminded the class that the techniques he did were for exercise only

David

philipsmith 04-23-2004 03:09 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
We will ocassionally practise against kicks (high & low) but really have found very little difference between these and other forms of attack.

The main trick is not to worry about them being "different"

Dunn 04-23-2004 07:30 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
My first dojo taught techniques against kicking about 1 class per month. It was almost always against front-kicks, though the instructors would practice against some more advanced kicks.

Unfortunately, it is one of those areas where your ukes must be a little more athletic. If you are defending against a kick from someone who has never, and would never, throw one, then it kind of feels like defending against a leg sweep instead.

Nick Simpson 04-23-2004 09:02 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Watch your mai and take the other leg out. Or just dodge em and let them tire themselves out.

Nick Simpson 04-23-2004 09:05 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
If were talking doing aikido techniques, you can kotegaeshi and shiohonage a foot, as well as doing very obvious iriminages, sokumen iriminages. Mae geri and Mae Washi are on our first kyu and shodan syllabus I think.

SeiserL 04-23-2004 09:11 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Watch the distance.

Get off the line. Slip the kick. Irimi or Sayu-undo.

Get off the line. Irimi tenkan behind. Pull down on shoulders.

Drop and roll into supporting leg.

Drop, grab the heel of supporting leg and apply sideway pressure to knee, sorta like Ikkyo to the leg.

Sample principles apply. Easier to take balance because only supported by one leg.

Train again kicks to get used to seeing the angle and it become pretty easy.

JMCavazos 04-23-2004 09:27 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
In terms of how to deal with any kick, is the same as anything else in aikido - control the uke's body. Don't worry so much about the kick, punch, weapon, etc.... as long as YOU can control HIS body. Most of posts here talk about entering to control the uke's body. It seems like excellent advice to me!

mantis 04-23-2004 11:15 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
A kick has a limited effective range. This means that it only has power in a small focused area at the end of it's arc.

Kicking something is like hitting a golf ball. It's real easy to hit a golf ball if it's on a tee, but if you put the ball on the back of a mouse and then try to hit it, it becomes increasingly difficult if not impossible. (just an analogy)

So maai is a given, then movement comes next. It's hard to change the arc of a kick once it's launched.
That being said, a good kicker will set you up so you will move into where he wants you.

Kickers have to plant their foot to deliver energy. This leaves them vulnerable to an attack.
Kickers have a limited effective range, so it is possible to jam their techniques, or move off the line of attack.
Most of the time a kickers nose will be over his knee when he kicks. try this out yourself and see.
This lets you know where his balance leg is. You can use this to your advantage. In most cases, the head movement to set up a kick is a good give away that an attack is coming. If his head moves to your right, then the kick will come from the left etc.

I hear all the time from TKD karate etc. players that a heel kick is so powerful, but in my experience, I've never had one be able to land it at all. A strong front thrust kick (not a hopping TKD competition style kick) is one of the hardest to defend against. It has power, and is good to get distance with and because it's straight on, it's harder to be telegraphed as opposed to a round house kick. A spinning back kick is also a good kick. A kicker can throw a hook punch but really is using it to distract you and set up the spinning back kick. (they are extremely fast).

Like any good art, you have to set your opponent up to knock him down. Kicking arts do the same thing, but by exploiting their weaknesses and sticking with aikido principles of maai, movement and blending that you learn will negate the power and effectiveness of their kicks.

Jordan Steele 04-23-2004 12:06 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
High kicks are generally easy to see, but pack a tonne of power. Best chance is to avoid them until there is an opportunity to penetrate. On the other hand, if you're able to get inside the power zone of a kick before it knocks you out cold, shoving a person trying to kick high will send them into another zip code and leave you standing there with a smug grin on your face.

GLWeeks 04-23-2004 12:28 PM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
We went over some kick defenses towards the end of class just the other day. My conclusion is this, real pain is Kotegaeshi applied to the foot... Ye-ouch!

David Yap 04-24-2004 12:06 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Quote:

GLWeeks wrote:
We went over some kick defenses towards the end of class just the other day. My conclusion is this, real pain is Kotegaeshi applied to the foot... Ye-ouch!

GLWeeks,

Agree with you on this. I like to caution you that this technique should be done with care to avoid serious injury to the Uke.

A long time ago. I had a friendly (at least I thought it was going to be friendly) sparring session with a TKD black belt. During the match, he thrown a side kick which I managed to trap between my left elbow and my right hand. He was hopping on one foot trying to keep his balance. As far I was concerned the match was over and was about to release his foot when I saw his right fist coming in an arc towards my face. I had got both my arms on his leg and there was not enough time to meet the strike with my right arm. By instinct, I turned his foot (still caught between my elbow) downwards. I believe that the direction of the foot turning coupled with the counter direction of his swinging right arm and hips must had torn some ligaments in his knee. He was out of physical action for six months. I felt awefully bad for his injury.

The Uke must really blend with you on this technique to avoid serious injury to the knees.

That's my free advice.

Regards

David

JessePasley 04-24-2004 04:01 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
While finding a good muay thai player or some other good kicker to spar with would be the easiest answer, I would suggest finding somebody versed in competitive san shou, perhaps with a taijiquan or xingyi background (as those arts seem very similar to aikido). Chances are a good san shou guy would know how to deal with good high kicks in a way aikidoka could readily understand.

Neil Mick 04-25-2004 04:36 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
I trained in Capoeira for about four years, partly to answer this question for myself (and also, partly to dance! :) )

My answer? A kick is just a punch, with a longer reach. Most any Aikido-move can be used against legs, and feet.

Doka 05-03-2004 06:21 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Evade - blend - throw their foot over their head!!!!!!! :D

arderljohn 06-28-2004 12:25 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Like any good art, you have to set your opponent up to knock him down. Kicking arts do the same thing, but by exploiting their weaknesses and sticking with aikido principles of maai, movement and blending that you learn will negate the power and effectiveness of their kicks.[/quote]

sorry i'm late for this thread...but it good to be late rather than doing nothing. ;)

what else can i say?
this tread is really good. I'm second the motion. I really like your opinnion..keep up the good attitude. :)

xuzen 06-28-2004 12:50 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
What about the old masters, has any one witness or saw in video, DVD of old masters handling kicks? Care to share?

Boon.

Benjie Lu 07-22-2004 12:43 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Quote:

Steve Nelson wrote:
How do you take falls as an uke when kicking? i find myself sort of hopping up to flip my foot over. Is there a better way?

Steve

We normally take backfalls and frontal falls from aikido techniques when the leg is trapped by nage during kicking practice.We would normally finish these types of techniques with a pin (i.e. leglock).

For the other times when nage applies a more orthodox technique versus a kicking attack (e.g. kotegaeshi, sankyo nage, etc.) we apply the ukemi that is appropriate.

M G 07-23-2004 07:45 AM

Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)
 
Hi Jeremy,
my sensei's anwser to similar questions was to treat kicks the same as an shomen uchi, yokomen uchi or tsuki attack for the block and unballanceing part. Then he's on the ground and you can do whatever you want (don't take time to think though).
Hope that helps for you.
Machiel.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:48 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.