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-   -   Best technique to use against someone shoving you? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5295)

Duval Culpepper 04-06-2004 10:54 AM

Best technique to use against someone shoving you?
 
Hello, I'm new to the boards. I'm Duval, a 17 year old student of Aikido from NYC.

Anyway, I was at a party recently where a altercation between a friend of mine and some guy was about to brew. Fortunately, I separated them, but the guy was pushing my friend with a lot of one-armed shoves.

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that? I'm not one to escalate a situation to a fight, but sometimes action must be taken.

Thanks.

kensparrow 04-06-2004 11:52 AM

Assuming all attempts at diplomacy have failed... I would probably go with nikkyo. If he's pushed more than once you know what his timing his so it should be relatively easy to capture his hand and, done correctly, nikkyo is kind of a show stopper. Of course if you do it wrong you're probably going to get punched in the face so I really think you should stick with what you did last time.

Duval Culpepper 04-06-2004 12:06 PM

Isn't there a technique that's sort of a deflection where you extend the meaty part of your forearm and make contact with uke's strike?

I guess sort of like what you'd do with your arm if you were doing a forward roll, but not rolling.

L. Camejo 04-06-2004 12:18 PM

One handed push?

Grab the forearem, turn away, drop your upper arm over his elbow and sink your weight to the floor (called Hiji Osae or something like that - aka basic arm bar).

After he kisses the floor, hold him in the pin, pull out your 9mm, press it to his temple and ask him - "Do you feel lucky? Well do ya Punk?"

:p

Apologies for this post, been watching too much Eastwood and been dealing with too many abusive little punks lately:) But the arm bar should work.:D

LC:ai::ki:

Duval Culpepper 04-06-2004 12:28 PM

Quote:

Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
One handed push?

Grab the forearem, turn away, drop your upper arm over his elbow and sink your weight to the floor (called Hiji Osae or something like that - aka basic arm bar).

By turn away, do you mean kaiten?

shihonage 04-06-2004 01:40 PM

Grab him by his sleeve and by his shirt, pull him toward you and then release the arm that is now under his chin, into an uppercut.

Yay.

L. Camejo 04-06-2004 01:46 PM

Quote:

Duval Culpepper wrote:
By turn away, do you mean kaiten?

Not a full kaiten, more like a half turn (turn body 90 degrees) which will allow you to break his balance to one side and get his forearm into your armpit, from which you can leverage down upon the elbow with the side of your body by sinking your weight. If you want to you can still apply the nikkyo on his wrist with your other hand as his arm is trapped under your armpit, which just adds more leverage to the technique.

The Yoshinkan does this technique a lot, Judoka do it too from the ground mostly. Can't remember the name at the moment though, the Shodokan version is called Waki Gatame, but is more of a forearm lock than a leverage on the elbow. An idea of it can be seen here, http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm.

Of course you can just do a full tenkan and just splat him face first on the floor, or take his pushing hand, and his balance along with it, pivot the opposite direction and do koteageshi.:) Sort of like shown here http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm

There are a few options to a one armed puch imo.:)

LC:ai::ki:

Bronson 04-06-2004 02:54 PM

*We do something called imovable posture from both standing and seiza. Just before his push lands drop your center forward and down. If you get it right they bounce off...it's kinda funny.

*Was he standing with hips facing square forward? If so as he pushes turn 90* so you are on the inside of the push (by turning your hips you extend your reach so unless he had much longer arms you should be able to reach him but remain just out of his reach). As you turn extend an open palm strike into the lower portion of the breast bone or into the shoulder joint of the pushing hand. Important to have that dropped center thing going on here too.

*Move to the outside of his pushing arm, slide forward and grab him by the throat, place your leg behind his and choke slam him backwards. Actually if you place the palm of your hand at the top of his breastbone and gently curl your fingers around his neck it looks like a choke but isn't really. It freaks people out to suddenly have a hand at their neck but you're not actually doing any harm...unless of course you want to.

*Spit in his face then kick him in the nads.

*Tell him you want to take it outside. Make sure he goes out first then lock the door and call the police.

Soooo many options, just depends on what you want to accomplish.

Bronson

p.s. If you don't work from this attack in the dojo you should ask to (if asking is allowed).

Kensai 04-06-2004 05:18 PM

Corner step and make shihonage.

Shihonage is always the answer!

PeterR 04-06-2004 06:29 PM

What Larry said. Wakagatamae is the first thing I thought of too.

WylMorris 04-06-2004 09:56 PM

I'd be inclined to step around and go for Kotegaeshi, in a similar fashion to the shomen uchi form.

A) because he's naturally going to off balance if your no longer at his point of attack

B) It takes you out of the line of further attacks

C) Its easy and effective, and can go to either a pin or a release, depending on where you want to go.

and of course

D) Kotegaeshi rocks.

~wyl

shihonage 04-06-2004 10:44 PM

Duval, next time you ask for similar advice, make sure to specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".

Otherwise you'll get a lot of theoretical responses which are only useful for comedy value, like the majority of suggestions in this thread (no offense to anyone involved).

Yes indeed "go around him and do kotegaeshi" wee-haa !

PeterR 04-06-2004 11:34 PM

Quote:

Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
Duval, next time you ask for similar advice, make sure to specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".

OK - wakagatamae.

For Nikkyu in the Shodokan syllabus its the first of five reversals to atemi waza. In fact it is the reversal paired to shomen-ate which is, wait for it, a push.

It's also one of the reversals you see most often in full randori and surprise, surprise I've used it in a relatively unpleasant, non-dojo environment. For such a quick movement you end up with a whole lot of control.

I've done Nikkyo under similar circumstance but should have done wakagatame. Too easy to loose control from the former.

Never even considered Shihonage. Too difficult and even so the potential for serious injury is just way too high.

Kotegeishi - don't think so. The hands of the pusher are usually about chest high - that in itself makes positioning very difficult. Kotegeishi like shihonage (which we call tenkai kotegeishi) is too easy to resist if balance is not well taken.

Wakagatame is one of the few techniques I would drill the devil out of to make you effective using just Aikido techniqes in six months. It has the potential to go from relatively safe control to brutal with only a minor shift.

shihonage 04-07-2004 01:44 AM

Peter, I looked up waki gatame and it looks like something I usually shift to when I feel my "ikkyo ura" is about to fail, on my real life ... acquaintances.

I just thought it was called hiji-kime. The differences are blurry to me at this point... I use armpit to control the arm...


PeterR 04-07-2004 02:09 AM

Hi Alex - don't you just love terminology.

Kihon for Shodokan is uke's forarm controlled by your chest with the elbow above uke's. The hand that you see grabbing the arm in your picture grabs the wrist with the other arm locking it all togeather and applying kime to uke's arm. Tori's elbow should be above uke's elbow. It affords good control with lots of options.

The explanation accompaning the animated gif is quite interesting in its own right.

jk 04-07-2004 03:51 AM

Quote:

Duval Culpepper wrote:
Isn't there a technique that's sort of a deflection where you extend the meaty part of your forearm and make contact with uke's strike?

I guess sort of like what you'd do with your arm if you were doing a forward roll, but not rolling.

That sounds like a wing block to me (bong sao in Wing Chun parlance). I've never seen it done in any aikido I've observed, so it'll probably be better to ask a decent Wing Chun instructor.

Hmmm...I'll try to screw around with it after aikido class tomorrow, just to see what happens. Thanks for the reminder.

L. Camejo 04-07-2004 06:46 AM

Aleksey, that is the name I was trying to remember from Judo - hiji kime. Iow the stripped down version of Wakigatame which is simply a lock on the extended elbow joint.

Wakigatame gives one a few more options and is a bit more giving if one does not want to snap the elbow. And yes it has worked for me in non dojo settings as well.

Peter, I've been told that Waki is one of those techs that are impossible to counter once it's on. What do you think?

LC:ai::ki:

Kensai 04-07-2004 11:50 AM

That Wakigatame to me is the Nikkyo pin from knife. But its very nice none the less.

Ron Tisdale 04-07-2004 01:10 PM

hiji shime is the yoshinkan nomenclature. Nice technique. Several different versions, from standing pin, reclining pin, to a kind of pushing throw after or during application. Here is one varient:

http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/hijishime/april_mpg

Ron

Bronson 04-07-2004 01:35 PM

Quote:

Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
...specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".

Does it have to be me personally who used the technique? Is it ok to list it if I've seen it done or heard about it being done from people I consider to be very reliable?

If so then all the things I listed have been used in off-mat situations. Except the spit in the face one involved an attacker with nunchaku and ended in an irimi nage type of thing instead of a nad kick :D

Bronson

PeterR 04-07-2004 07:20 PM

Quote:

Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Peter, I've been told that Waki is one of those techs that are impossible to counter once it's on. What do you think?

Impossible is well impossible.

Properly executed it is very tough to deal with and Nariyama Shihan apparently said that when Tomiki had hold of you it might as well have been the devil. He didn't even have to grab the wrist - the kime on the forearm was that strong. The other great advantage of the technique is the ability to escallate - control to break. Nasty.

Improperly executed. Well this guy may by Nariyama Shihan's sempai but there is plenty wrong with the technique. The most telling problem is the leg placement - uke can sweep if only the arm could be rotated. Fortuneately for uke the grip allows it.

Nacho_mx 04-07-2004 07:41 PM

I probably would deflect the arm, do a Irimi step and go from there, depending on how agressive is the shoving. And Duval, the extension of your slightly curved arm is known as tegatana or hand blade, and it would be useful too.

L. Camejo 04-07-2004 07:51 PM

Peter, I see your point.

The story came from my instructor after he had trained with Nariyama, so I can see the linkage now. From experience, once locked in it took a great deal of "precise relaxation" and movement to get any sort of counter off. Of course most times I just had to tap out.:)

Ron, hiji shime is what I was thinking of, I remember reading about it in "Total Aikido".

Think I'll be working that tech next class.:) Just love the kime techs.

Another one that I used "in real life" was shomen ate, but this was only because the attacking push was aimed towards one shoulder, so I just entereed using the other one.

LC:ai::ki:

Duval Culpepper 04-07-2004 08:36 PM

Thanks for all the responses guys. I think the tegatana technique that Ignacio mentioned would probably be the most disarming move to perform.

Can't I do a reverse kotegashi move if I step in, grab behind his elbow, and turn my hips as well?
Quote:

Ignacio Jaramillo (Nacho_mx) wrote:
I probably would deflect the arm, do a Irimi step and go from there, depending on how agressive is the shoving. And Duval, the extension of your slightly curved arm is known as tegatana or hand blade, and it would be useful too.

Thanks for the clarification on that one.

jk 04-07-2004 09:24 PM

Oops, my bad. You were referring to tegatana. My first thought from your description was an elbow up, thumb down extension, which doesn't shout tegatana to me, but that's just me. Sorry for muddying the waters.


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