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-   -   Poll: What do you usually do with your breath during a throw in your aikido training? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5155)

AikiWeb System 03-14-2004 12:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of March 14, 2004:

What do you usually do with your breath during a throw in your aikido training?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Exhale only
  • Exhale, then inhale
  • Hold
  • Inhale, then exhale
  • Inhale only
Here are the current results.

Doka 03-14-2004 01:58 PM

I exhale as the throw is executed, although I must point out that I do inhale after [the throw], as to do otherwise is quite bad for your health!!!

:rolleyes:

ikkitosennomusha 03-14-2004 04:07 PM

I exhale to release ki to break the fall. After the point of contact with the mat, then breath in.

Doka 03-14-2004 04:20 PM

Brad - you release your balance through breath? :rolleyes:

So then, what is Ki, Brad? evileyes

Doka 03-14-2004 04:25 PM

OK, OK!!! Just messing! Ki is a word used far too loosely. Breath (Kokyu) is an accompaniment to the correct muscle movement that moves the body in the direction of the throw.

No mystical mumbo-jumbo!

:ai:

Jamie Stokes 03-14-2004 04:37 PM

I breathe out during the actual throw.

I "breathe in" my partner during the movement.

One of the simple reasons (Non esoteric) is that if you breath out during the throw, if you get your breath knocked out, at least it comes out in a rush.

If you're inhaling doing a throw, and you breath gets knocked out, you are winded. And a sitting duck.

warmest,

Jamie

MaryKaye 03-14-2004 09:59 PM

There isn't a poll category for "pant pathetically throughout the throw"? Darn.

(Yes, I need to work on endurance.)

Mary Kaye

Jeanne Shepard 03-14-2004 10:13 PM

I've NO idea what I do with my breath.

I assume I keep breathing...

Jeanne

happysod 03-15-2004 01:22 AM

I'm with Jeanne ('cept in randori, then I'm with Mary)

Hanna B 03-15-2004 04:18 AM

As tori, or as uke?

wendyrowe 03-15-2004 04:49 AM

I assumed the poll meant what I as nage do. I have a feeling that as uke I hold my breath as I'm being thrown -- but I'm generally too busy to notice.

From the results, it looks to me like we're all doing the same thing but some of us counted from when we're winding up getting ready to execute the throw (inhale) and others of us started from the actual throw itself (exhale).

"We are experiencing semantic difficulties, please stand by ...."

Karen Wolek 03-15-2004 06:29 AM

I think there should be another category:

I have no idea.

That's not good, is it? <grin>

Victor Ioncu 03-15-2004 07:24 AM

Throwing and being thrown, I exhale.

SeiserL 03-15-2004 08:11 AM

Inhale as I enter and blend. Exhale as I execute the throw or lock.

Usually I just try to center my breath normally between the stress/fear pattern of holding it or hyperventilating.

Life depends on breathing.

Ron Tisdale 03-15-2004 09:21 AM

as shite -- Inhale to steal the breath and take the balance, then exhale for power on the throw. Generally.

As uke -- exhale in a controled fashion thoughout the ukemi if possible. Sometimes exhale sharply with the attack, inhale sharply, exhale through the actual fall.

Sometimes I just gasp (usually when doing REALLY bad technique)

RT

Atomicpenguin 03-15-2004 10:59 AM

I think the premise is sort of an advanced idea, but I always, as nage, inhale to integrate uke's one point into myself and then exhale to complete the throw. Both pieces are important. I think that for uke it sort of depends on the attack. With a strike I inhale before execution of the attack and then exhale on impact. With a grab I think it varies depending on what you wish to accompish with the grab. If the intent is drive back then the same respiratory pattern is followed. If the intent is to draw in nage, then the reverse is done.

At least this is all the ideal. I occasionally find myself not following my own advice. And I firmly believe that this is not an introductory level idea. I don't tell this to new people anymore because it doesn't make sense to their bodies. I think technique must be integrated at least to the point where it's possible to carry out the movement without having to think about which foot goes where and which hand does what.

From the nage perspective I think this is all most illustratable in kokyudosa. After that the kokyunage's seem pretty good ways to catch the idea. After all, what does "kokyu" mean again?

ikkitosennomusha 03-15-2004 11:05 AM

Quote:

Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
Brad - you release your balance through breath? :rolleyes:

So then, what is Ki, Brad? evileyes

Mark:

I will reserve from giving you a definition of ki because that should be a new thread. However, when one is releasing ki, one also exhales. This is common sense dude! Even the motor function of speaking must you exhale to release the vibrations stemming from your vocal cords.

Brad Medling

kironin 03-15-2004 11:39 AM

I didn't answer the question because I think the whole premise on which it is based is simply wrong and that none of the answers are correct.

Koichi Tohei Sensei talks about breathing naturally while throwing. Getting attached to the idea that your stronger on exhaling or inhaling is a weakness that can be exploited in his view. My experience is that you can throw well breathing in, breathing out, etc. as long as your breathing is naturally calm and not from your upper chest.

my 2 cents,

Craig

kironin 03-15-2004 11:45 AM

Quote:

David Enevoldsen (Atomicpenguin) wrote:
I

From the nage perspective I think this is all most illustratable in kokyudosa. After that the kokyunage's seem pretty good ways to catch the idea. After all, what does "kokyu" mean again?

At least according to Koichi Tohei Sensei, use of "kokyunage" is meant more to rhythm or timing.

breathing is rhythmic and that ("rhythm") is the sense you should be interpreting the name.

kokyudosa is another case where I think people are being misled by literally interpreting the name.

ymmv,

Craig

ikkitosennomusha 03-15-2004 11:50 AM

great comment Craig!

Min 03-15-2004 12:54 PM

As uke, I often inhale as the throw is being executed, then exhale when being thrown. Sometimes this process is accompanied by a set of wide eyes and, if there's time, a mental check of "I'll be okay after this, right? Right." The small act of inhaling reminds me to be awake.

kung fu hamster 03-15-2004 01:06 PM

By the time I get uke into position to throw, I'm usually wheezing like an accordian. But I believe that we're taught to exhale when throwing, in order to achieve maximum power in projection.

Qatana 03-15-2004 01:11 PM

As i generally throw my ukes at the wall or the mirror i generally perform the throw and then gasp in fear as uke flies towards imminent doom.

Atomicpenguin 03-15-2004 01:42 PM

Quote:

At least according to Koichi Tohei Sensei, use of "kokyunage" is meant more to rhythm or timing.

breathing is rhythmic and that ("rhythm") is the sense you should be interpreting the name.

kokyudosa is another case where I think people are being misled by literally interpreting the name.
I very much agree with you in regards to rhythm. However I don't think people are misled by the name. Like pretty much everything in aikido there are multiple issues at play here. I am merely talking about one aspect.

To employ the principles laid out by Tohei in an example, it's like I'm talking about relaxing. If you counter with, but Tohei says we should do the technique with weight underside, you're right but you haven't invalidated my point.

Natural rhythm is also an important and integral part of a kokuynage. The challenge then, as I see it, is to sync the breath of the motion to your own natural movement, with the motion of your partner. This is a heck of a lot to deal with. This is another reason why I view this idea as an advanced level concept.

It's important that we understand both of these components and not get too wrapped up in one or the other. If I argue breath to the exclusion of rhythm it's like arguing an emphasis on ki to the exclusion of posture. Look at Tohei. He's spent his life spreading an understanding of ki. When I think of Tohei, I think of ki principles. Posture is not one of the first tenets that pops into mind. However, if you've ever seen him, his posture and precision is incredible. He obviously understands that each is a component (hence the principles).

Atomicpenguin 03-15-2004 02:12 PM

Sorry, didn't quite finish my thought.

My point with the final paragraph was that you promote what needs to be worked on. Tohei, I assume, felt that there was a need for a better understanding of ki in the aikido community. And he therefore taught about ki. That does not mean that he does not pay attention to other points.

When a new person comes in off the street the first thing you tell them is which foot to place where, how each hand moves and all the other strictly mechanical gross motor movements. Once that's understood you start to walk them through some rudimentary understanding of softening to gain power or the use of one point to prevent balance or some such thing. Over time technique can become sloppy due to emphasis on these new ideas. You then revert to stressing posture and the mechanics of the technique.

In my own progress, I do very much the same thing. I focus on one idea for awhile. Eventually I realize I've gotten lax on one of the others. So I return there. In effect, I'm kind of zig-zagging upwards.

The same is true with breath and rhythm. The mechanics of breath that I described are like the "this is where your foot goes, this is where your hand goes" portion of the technique. But if I focus exclusively on that my technique is useless. So I bounce between each.

As one final example, in breathing exercises there is an explanation that Tohei offers for each component. What happens when you try to coordinate an entire class to one person's rhythm following that pattern? Someone invariably breaths at the wrong pace and then can't keep in sync because they don't have enough air. So the objective becomes to find the rhythm you can do, sync it with the rhythm of the person leading the exercise and make it natural.


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