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Nafis Zahir 02-10-2004 03:09 AM

Hakama Tying
 
Question: How do you tie your hakama? I have been experimenting with several different ways, and have not settled on one way as of yet. I've tried to tie it like my Sensei, but I can't seem to get it to stay on as well as his does, even if I pull the straps until I can't breath. I just saw a video on it by Furuya Sensei, which I'm going to try next. I'd like to hear your way of tying the hakama and why you tie it that way. Thanks!

batemanb 02-10-2004 03:47 AM

Put my obi on first. Take the back ties of my hakama, pass them inside my obi going from above to below, tie them in a knot at the front below the obi. Take the front ties and pass them inside the obi and the back ties from the top, slightly tuck the front edge of the hakama insde the obi too. Pass them round the front, then wrap around the back and bring them back to the front. Tie the ends in a reef knot at the front, ensuring that the knot incorporates all of the passing ties. There should be enough loose ends to form a "cheap" bow.

Take one end and loop it horizontally, take the other end and wrap vertically around the middle of the horizontal loop until you have a neat looking cross.

Sounds a lot more complicated written down than it actually is.

Greg Jennings 02-10-2004 06:59 AM

One of my hakama is very slick and wants to "droop" toward the end of a vigorous class.

I fixed that by looping both set of himo a complete turn around my obi.

I don't find it as attractive, but it does stay in place really well.

HTH,

Ian Upstone 02-10-2004 07:46 AM

I too am experimenting, and trying to find the balance between function (i.e. not coming loose!) and complication of tying...

The front himo on my hakama are not long enough to tie around me twice, so they cross behind, then in front, then I tie them at the back. I then attach the back, tucking the back himo under the (already tied) front himo and then tie in a reef knot at the front - then do the bow as Bryan has explained above. (thanks Bryan!)

Recently I've taken to tying the back on first (temporarily, with the bow high up on my chest) then when I tie the front himo as above it helps secure the koshi-ita to my back. I then re-tie the back himo, tucking and tying at the front as before. It feels a lot more secure and feels less likely to loosen when I take a lot of ukemi this way.

This is difficult to describe, so apologies if it makes no sense!

ze'ev erlich 02-10-2004 09:24 AM

When my sensei gave me my first Hakama he taught me how to wear it.

SmilingNage 02-10-2004 02:33 PM

I came across a site once, maybe it was bujin That suggested tying your hakama according to your waist. Mid section size should determine what you are doing with your straps according to the article.

I pull them(the starps) as tight as I can after each pass. Only because I learned that the straps come loose after a few rolls. Also I found that lacing my straps over my obi straps tended to keep the hakama where it belonged. Often I bound it as to conceal the color of my belt. Increasing my chances for being called up by visiting teachers ;)

Lan Powers 02-10-2004 08:57 PM

chart of detailed instructions on the bujin site...

Lan

Nafis Zahir 02-10-2004 09:24 PM

Quote:

Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
Sounds a lot more complicated written down than it actually is.

Bryan,

I used to tie my hakama this way, but I found that the sides of the hakama gapped open. I also found that if you didn't tie the straps real tight, the koshiita would slip down. Tying the front first has helped me feel my center more. It's just that there is so much excess strap to tuck and wrap up.

batemanb 02-11-2004 12:56 AM

Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
Bryan,

I used to tie my hakama this way, but I found that the sides of the hakama gapped open. I also found that if you didn't tie the straps real tight, the koshiita would slip down. Tying the front first has helped me feel my center more. It's just that there is so much excess strap to tuck and wrap up.

Nafis,

This way was taught to me in Japan, I've been using it for about 8 years without any problems, certainly not had my Koshita slide down.

Regards

Bryan

Nafis Zahir 02-11-2004 03:37 AM

Quote:

Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
Nafis,

This way was taught to me in Japan, I've been using it for about 8 years without any problems, certainly not had my Koshita slide down.

Regards

Bryan

Bryan,

Who taught you this way? Did they say it was traditional or just their way?

batemanb 02-11-2004 04:16 AM

Nafis,

No mention of it being traditional, but then I didn't ask.

I would have taken some step by step photo shots but someone knicked my digital camera when I went Paris at the weekend:(

rgds

Bryan

Nafis Zahir 02-11-2004 04:44 AM

Quote:

Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
Nafis,

No mention of it being traditional, but then I didn't ask.

rgds

Bryan

Who taught you?

batemanb 02-11-2004 04:59 AM

Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
Who taught you?

Nakao Shingo Sensei, Akikai 6th Dan.

Peter Goldsbury 02-11-2004 07:05 AM

Re: Hakama Tying
 
Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
Question: How do you tie your hakama? I have been experimenting with several different ways, and have not settled on one way as of yet. I've tried to tie it like my Sensei, but I can't seem to get it to stay on as well as his does, even if I pull the straps until I can't breath. I just saw a video on it by Furuya Sensei, which I'm going to try next. I'd like to hear your way of tying the hakama and why you tie it that way. Thanks!

I know of at least three ways, all 'traditional' and all used in Japan.

The first way is favoured by Doshu and the Aikikai Hombu. After putting on the obi, you put on the hakama and take the front himo of the hakama and tie them twice around the body, just below the waist, with a cross-over at the font. The ends should be tucked in and not left hanging. Then, with the koshi-ita firmly positioned just above the obi, the back himo are threaded through the front himo from top to bottom and tied at the front, just below the waist. Again, the ends should be tucked in and not left hanging down.

The second way starts with the back himo, which are tied at the front. The purpose is to get the koshi-ita fimly in position. You put on the hakama and tie the back himo first. Then the front himo are tied around the body, much the same as in the first way. You then untie the front himo and thread them through the tied back himo and make a knot at the front, just below the waist. I learned this method from M Kanetsuka Shihan, but other shihans also use this method.

The third is favoured by Japanese university students and is similar to the first way, except that the front himo are firmly tucked inside the obi and are tied under the hakama, below the obi, so that the knot is at the front, but is invisible. Then the koshi-ita of the hakama is put in place and the back himo are tied outside the hakama at the front in the normal way.

I myself generally use the first way, but use the second way with a particularly ancient hakama, where the stitching on the koshi-ita is falling apart. In addition I do not use a judo obi, but a wider one that winds round the body with the end tucked in, rather than tied in a knot.

Best regards,

Nafis Zahir 02-11-2004 12:52 PM

Thanks alot Peter! I'm going to do a version of the 1st & 3rd ways. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks for the response Bryan!

Nafis Zahir 02-11-2004 12:56 PM

Re: Re: Hakama Tying
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
I know of at least three ways, all 'traditional' and all used in Japan.

The second way starts with the back himo, which are tied at the front. The purpose is to get the koshi-ita fimly in position. You put on the hakama and tie the back himo first. Then the front himo are tied around the body, much the same as in the first way. You then untie the front himo and thread them through the tied back himo and make a knot at the front, just below the waist. I learned this method from M Kanetsuka Shihan, but other shihans also use this method.

Peter,

Please explain again, it sounds confusing. How do you tie and then untie the front himo?

Peter Goldsbury 02-11-2004 04:23 PM

Re: Re: Re: Hakama Tying
 
Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
Peter,

Please explain again, it sounds confusing. How do you tie and then untie the front himo?

When you put on the hakama, you need to get the koshi-ita firmly in place, just above the obi. To keep it in place, you need to tie the back himo. I usually tie it round my body, just above the waist. Then you must deal with the front of the hakama. You tie the front himo as usual, only with this method they go round the back of the hakama and are crossed over directly below the koshi-ita. You tie them in front as usual. Now you have the back himo to deal with, since they are still tied around the waist and need to be tied properly. I usually thread them through the front himo, from above, and tie them at the front.

Best regards,

Steven 02-12-2004 09:35 AM

I typically use the first method show here:

http://www.bujindesign.com/use_hakama.html

However, I'm a bit confused on the second method that is shown. (the Traditional Method)

Step 2 has you tie the back himo in front about chest height. Then proceeds with the front himo. However at no time does it show what to do with the back himo. Something appears to be missing between caption 3 and 5.

...Cheers...

akiy 02-12-2004 10:18 AM

Quote:

Steven Miranda (Steven) wrote:
I typically use the first method show here:

http://www.bujindesign.com/use_hakama.html

However, I'm a bit confused on the second method that is shown. (the Traditional Method)

Step 2 has you tie the back himo in front about chest height. Then proceeds with the front himo. However at no time does it show what to do with the back himo. Something appears to be missing between caption 3 and 5.

Good point, Steven. I've sent in a "bug report" into the folks at Bu Jin Design.

The way I tie my hakama, though, is very much like the "Traditional Method" shown there and is probably about the same as the one that Peter Goldsbury relates above. I tuck the front himo under my belt rather than tying it into a bow near my chest, though.

-- Jun

Peter Goldsbury 02-12-2004 06:12 PM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Good point, Steven. I've sent in a "bug report" into the folks at Bu Jin Design.

The way I tie my hakama, though, is very much like the "Traditional Method" shown there and is probably about the same as the one that Peter Goldsbury relates above. I tuck the front himo under my belt rather than tying it into a bow near my chest, though.

-- Jun

Yes. If you use a judo-style obi, then there are these other possibilities. As I stated in my earlier posts, students favour tucking the top of the hakama (including himo, of course) inside and below the obi. If you do this, you have the choice of tying the himo inside or outside the hakama, usually at the front. I use a wide, wrap-around obi, of the type favoured by Fujita Masatake Shihan, wound tightly around the waist, as is traditional with obi, and so there is no point in tying himo underneath this.

With the traditional 2nd method I described above, the himo are always tied outside the hakama, never inside. However, the first method leaves the back panel of the hakama, below the koshi-ita, unencumbered with himo, which are wound round the body underneath.

The method of tying the final knot is very well explained in the Bujin illustrations, but very few people here know this method. They usually use a reef knot and leave the himo ends hanging down, which used to upset traditionalists like the late Arikawa Sensei.

Actually, tying the hakama can become something of an obsession and it needs to be remembered that the hakama is just a garment\a complex piece of cloth, and any way of tying it is OK, so long as it does not fall down during practice and you do not trip over it.

But if I give a demonstration, especially here in Japan in front of older shihans, this is a good chance to remember to make sure it is the correct length (the keikogi bottoms should not be seen below the hakama) and that it is tied properly\with the 'Bujin bow'.

Best regards to all,

Nafis Zahir 02-12-2004 09:59 PM

[quote="Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury)"]Yes. If you use a judo-style obi, then there are these other possibilities. As I stated in my earlier posts, students favour tucking the top of the hakama (including himo, of course) inside and below the obi. If you do this, you have the choice of tying the himo inside or outside the hakama, usually at the front.









Not that it should matter, but when I use to tie my hakama this way, it gapped on the sides and I did not like that look. Then I saw a few Shihan with very neat looking hakamas and started to notice that many of them do not tuck the front of the hakama, but pull it just above the obi knot and tie it around from there. BuJin's extended front panel helps with the gapping, but the extension is too much. Do you know how any of the other Shihans tie theirs?

batemanb 02-13-2004 01:26 AM

I've just looked at the Bujin instructions, the traditional method appears very close to the way that I tried to explain before, with the exception that I thread the rear himo through the obi and tie below it. I do my bow exactly the same way.

Regards

Bryan

p00kiethebear 02-18-2004 03:23 AM

/start mindless babbling and boredom

The untiable hakama is a tool used by zen masters similar to the zen koan.

The hakama is never tied perfectly. It is the students' job to recognize that tying the hakama so that it will never become loose is impossible. Once the students understand that principle, they will discover that their hakama has always been tied well.

/end babbling and boredom.

Nafis Zahir 02-18-2004 12:24 PM

Since I've been tying the front first, I've only had one problem: the front seems to slip off of the obi knot no matter how tight I pull the straps. Any suggestions?

p00kiethebear 02-18-2004 10:49 PM

Quote:

Since I've been tying the front first, I've only had one problem: the front seems to slip off of the obi knot no matter how tight I pull the straps. Any suggestions?
I always tuck the top of the front pannel backwards into the obi. Usually a good two inches tuck is good for not letting it slip down infront of the obi


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