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aikidoc 01-29-2004 09:28 PM

Ukemi waza
 
A while back the Journal of Asian Martial Arts had an article titled Ukemiwaza: The art of attacking by K. Taylor. Since I thought it was the art of taking ukemi (falls), I wondered if there was a different interpretation. Perhaps the title was inaccurate or perhaps some of you who know the Japanese language could shed some light on this title.

taras 01-31-2004 09:07 AM

Atemiwaza?

Nick Simpson 01-31-2004 09:29 AM

Atemi Waza rocks, one of my sempai and I worked a choreographed technique (if you can call it that) out where uke comes into strike and tori steps in and delivers a two handed yokomen to the face/neck but stops just short and uke takes a back breakfall dramatically. Its stupid but fun, cant wait to try it out in randori just to see everyones faces.

ChristianBoddum 01-31-2004 02:19 PM

Hi John !

Ukemi means something like "recieving the technique" so it is much more than rolling/

falling.

To help nage/tori perform the technique

uke must provide a good quality attack that

is needed for the technique to work.

Good ukemi is neither forced nor weak ,

good ukemi makes Aikido real , but still it is a work of cooperation even at the highest speeds.

So calling ukemiwaza atemiwaza ,is probably not far off.

yours Chr.B.

aikidoc 01-31-2004 09:07 PM

I thought it was atemiwaza as well but that was the title of the article. They (JAMA) pride themselves on publishing things that are accurate.

Nick P. 02-01-2004 07:29 PM

Was the article by Mr. (Sensei) Kim Taylor in Ontario, Canada? If it was that might be the root of some of the confusion.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/

aikidoc 02-01-2004 11:05 PM

Nick: How is it that it explains it? Is there some language issue?

Ian Upstone 02-02-2004 02:29 AM

As far as I know the word ukemi is made of two parts: uke - 'recieve/accept' and mi - 'body'.

Perhaps in this context the waza described includes 'recieving' your attacker's body before applying technique, perhaps like sutemi waza (sacrifice techniques) or perhaps even just a form of blending with their body as we do in aikido.

This happens all the time in many japanese arts. I've seen what I would call a shiho nage described as kote gaeshi. Tori/nage/sh'te 'returns' uke's wrist over their shoulder - it's just a different use for the same words.

I'll stop there as I should be working now.

PeterR 02-02-2004 05:58 AM

Does someone have the direct link to the article itself.

Not having read the article ukemiwaza read to me as techniques used to attack. This makes much more sense in formal kata especially when one considers that traditionally uke was the more senior of the pair.

Atemiwaza are a class of Aikido techniques not limited to what uke does.

and by the way Ian - in Shodokan parlance what you guys call Shihonage we call Tenkai kotegaishi. Not sure what that has to do with ukemiwaza.

Ian Upstone 02-02-2004 07:22 AM

I'd like to read the article as well, if anyone has a link I'd be very grateful!

Peter, my shiho nage/kote gaeshi remark was merely an observation of how normal Japanese words can develop a narrow definition when used in only one context i.e. in one particular art. I thought it was relevant to give an similar example - just in case we are limiting our definition of 'ukemi waza' to what we know of it as aikidoka.

PeterR 02-02-2004 10:08 AM

Quote:

Ian Upstone wrote:
Peter, my shiho nage/kote gaeshi remark was merely an observation of how normal Japanese words can develop a narrow definition when used in only one context i.e. in one particular art. I thought it was relevant to give an similar example - just in case we are limiting our definition of 'ukemi waza' to what we know of it as aikidoka.

Ah I understand - and yes you are right.

I'm going to have to read that article before I say too much more. Kim Taylor is a sword guy and although kenjutsu kata usually have uke/tori designations there tends to be a much more switching between attacking/defending actions. I'm a little puzzeled because the term somehow suggests there are techniques particular to uke which if so is beyond my limited experience.

Speaking of Kim Talylor - I was in the Budo shop outfitting one of my charges and me the man responsible for Mr. Taylor's Kendo/Iaido account with the company. It's a small little shop in Himeji but its an even smaller world.

Joe Jutsu 02-02-2004 03:25 PM

Having never taken a karate class, I could be way off the mark here, but it is my understanding that ukemi or receiving a technique in karate is what we might refer to as "blocks," so maybe the article on ukemiwaza was refering to karate's "blocking" techniques?

Just a thought

:ki:

aikidoc 02-03-2004 07:51 AM

Ukemiwaza
 
It was an article on aikido. Possibly the Canadian instructor uses different terminology. I could not find any references in my various sources to using the term ukemi waza for attacking or the art of attacking.

Ian Upstone 02-03-2004 08:22 AM

Perhaps they've used the term 'Ukemiwaza' to mean the entirety of uke's role (not roll...)

...including (and in this case it would seem, emphasizing) the initial attack made by uke?

Bronson 02-03-2004 08:25 AM

I have no lingual basis for this but I've always considered ukemi to be all the things you do as uke, of which falling is an aspect and so is attacking.

As uke we need to give solid attacks, keep intention and awareness, protect ourselves from atemi, and be able to take a safe fall. All of these (and I'm sure more...but you get the idea) together make up ukemi in my book.

Bronson

akiy 02-03-2004 09:35 AM

Hi folks,

So I contacted Kim and he took a look at this thread. He wanted me to relay that
Quote:

Kim Taylor wrote:
before I was a lowly, ignorant and misguided sword guy I spent 13 years (from 1980 to 1993) as an aikido guy and I'm aware of the various meanings of the word ukemi. Here's the rational for the article and for the title. The article is an excerpt of that book I told you about [editor's note: a book that he's had "on the shelf" for the past nine years or so] that I never got around to doing anything with, it includes falling down but also all the other stuff I figured was necessary for a good attacker. It was intended to be an examination of the "other half" of aikido, the half most folks ignore. I needed a name for that half which includes how to fall down obviously, but also how to stand up, how to keep attacking beyond clomping up and slapping your hand on his wrist or pushing your fist somewhere around where his face is, how to use the weapons usually associated with aikido, and how to keep yourself alive, involved and protected all the time of your attack up to and including when you roll and afterward.



I needed a name for that part of aikido that wasn't the chucking down part, so I called it the "getting chucked down part", Ukemiwaza. The book contains ukemi advice, the article, which is an excerpt doesn't so I suppose I could have called it uke waza, or atemi waza, or bokuto waza, or shidachi waza, or up-to-getting-chucked-down waza...



But I didn't.



Consider the use of the term to be a koan which is now causing everyone examine ukemi... which is what I intended to book to do in the first place. ;-)



Kim "who will happily sit still for all sorts of abuse for linguistic crimes if people are bored and it makes them happy"

Just as a side note, I've met and taken a class with Kim who is, aside from his past experience in aikido, a 6th dan in iaido these days. I believe he is the only person qualified to officially instruct Niten Ichi-ryu kenjutsu (the two sword style developed by Miyamoto Musashi) in North America.

-- Jun

Nick Simpson 02-03-2004 04:03 PM

Forgive me if I sound stupid but that book sounds very interesting to me, is it available or does on the shelf mean that it has not been published???

PeterR 02-03-2004 05:45 PM

Quote:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Just as a side note, I've met and taken a class with Kim who is, aside from his past experience in aikido, a 6th dan in iaido these days. I believe he is the only person qualified to officially instruct Niten Ichi-ryu kenjutsu (the two sword style developed by Miyamoto Musashi) in North America.

And the translation of the Go Rin Sho - is that also still in the works?


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