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indomaresa 01-24-2004 05:54 AM

legal randori techniques
 
I've been wondering a few things

In my jiyu-waza / randori experience, I've tried many kinds of different attack settings ( all strikes, all grabs, mixed grab and strikes, takedowns, etc ), each one creating a different randori experience, but what I'm wondering is whether there are rules regarding how the nage should react?

For an example;

1. I've watched many shihan's randori, and SOME of them did some very un-aikido-like techniques such as legsweeps or just simply pushing the uke away.

2. During randori, I sometimes find that when cornered to a particular position, I had the urge to ROLL / ukemi out of the attack (in - between two attackers) or crouch and kaiten myself out of danger.

3. Sometimes when we are taken down we found that we can extricate ourselves and roll back to standing position. Should we continue the randori? Or do we fail? ( I'm just asking this one in the case of an examination, in the dojo we can probably continue ) Or, what If an uke's attack connects? can we continue the randori?

========

Point 1; not all the moves I saw are un-aikido-like, some of the legsweeps are effective and placed at the right-point-at-the-right-time, and some of the push are really well placed to cause kuzushi. ( but there's some that is just plain pathetic )

Points 2 and 3: is this legal?

thank you,

SeiserL 01-24-2004 11:55 AM

IMHO, Tomiki style Aikido is the only one that I know of that has set competetition, they may have some rule about what is "legal." Outside that, it all Aikido if you are applying the principles. Be creative, have a good time.

Don_Modesto 01-24-2004 12:34 PM

Re: legal randori techniques
 
I'm saving my pennies to buy George Ledyard's Principles of Randori: A Video Manual(http://www.aikieast.com/randori_vide...ndori%20Manual).

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Manual is a PowerPoint Presentation in CD-R Format - Readable on Most PC's

Simply load to an empty folder on your PC and view the show!



54 Video Clips

Contains:

7 Full Color Diagrams of Randori Movement Principles

41 slides with technical information



This manual is the product of almost fifteen years of research during various Randori Seminars and Intensives. Clips contain video footage of Ledyard Sensei and students taken during these events.

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L. Camejo 01-25-2004 10:18 AM

Re: legal randori techniques
 
Not like I can say what happens elsewhere, but to me randori is supposed to be a random, pretty unstructured practice (unless one is practising it to train specific elements). In which case the only tenet is to do "Aikido" techniques and remember the spirit of protection of your Uke.

In the event of Shodokan resistance (toshu or tanto) randori for competition, the techniques allowed are the basic 17 from the randori no kata which you can see here http://www.ttac.0catch.com/animtech.htm

In this case, the attacks tend to be limited to certain types by Uke, and Tori is also limited, mainly in an attempt to maintain the safety factor with a seriously resisting uke. In my class we tend to vary attacks more, with with a commensurate decrease in resistance on the part of uke so that things dont end up in an all out brawl:)
Quote:

Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
1. I've watched many shihan's randori, and SOME of them did some very un-aikido-like techniques such as legsweeps or just simply pushing the uke away.

Sometimes when ma ai falls apart and attackers close distance, one may resort to some techniques that may exist in other arts they have learnt or simply a very very basic aikido response, like using kuzushi to thro or take down instead of applying a finishing technique. For me, if I fall back to judo/jujutsu/striking in randori i see it as a loss as I am training to maintain and use my Aikido training and control when under pressure, not escape to the nearest exit:).
Quote:

Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
2. During randori, I sometimes find that when cornered to a particular position, I had the urge to ROLL / ukemi out of the attack (in - between two attackers) or crouch and kaiten myself out of danger.

Have rolled out of techniques in judo randori (esp. juji gatame). I generally try not to in Aikido by not letting myself get cornered, or using the corner to my advantage, but if all else fails I think I have rolled out of danger a few times in the past. If nothing else, it gets ya out of danger quick :). I guess its legality depends on who's watching/running the session. Of course doing ukemi in a way that places you in a dangerous position for attack can't be right.
Quote:

Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
3. Sometimes when we are taken down we found that we can extricate ourselves and roll back to standing position. Should we continue the randori? Or do we fail? ( I'm just asking this one in the case of an examination, in the dojo we can probably continue ) Or, what If an uke's attack connects? can we continue the randori?

In randori for competition if one is thrown by a successful counter of which there are only 5 options (atemi waza) for the guy holding the tanto in tanto randori, the engagement is normally stopped and restarted as points would have been awarded for such. As far as Uke connecting, generally we continue in normal training, in tanto randori however, if a proper strike is landed (i.e. in posture and tanto sunk properly into uke's chest) the bout is restarted as a point will be awarded against Tori for being hit. I remember being grazed on the chin by a karateka when doing some randori after a seminar I conducted (this was not for demo, but they wanted to see what I had), before it even registered that he had connected he was on the floor with kote mawashi (nikkyo) so I guess it depends on one's objectives as I said before.

Just my thoughts.

L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR 01-25-2004 05:45 PM

Hi Larry;

I'm starting to play a little bit more with toshu randori and want to introduce a little bit more punch/kick play with the more advanced students. Main reason is that I have a pair of yudansha in PK arts and a) want to milk their knowledge and b) want to keep them happy.

If Shiai is your goal your randori needs to keep the strict rules in mind but more often than not we play. Sometimes there is such a beautiful opening that just begs for a non-Shiai technique. If you start adding these elements the full-blown randori is pretty much out of the question - but we do have less intense variations where they can fit in just fine.

sanosuke 01-25-2004 08:47 PM

Re: legal randori techniques
 
Hi Maresa, (long time haven't come to your dojo)
Quote:

1. I've watched many shihan's randori, and SOME of them did some very un-aikido-like techniques such as legsweeps or just simply pushing the uke away.
in some situations sometimes we need to do things different from usual. I don't know if legsweeps/ pushing uke away is called un-aikido, because in randori/jiyu waza means we can use any techniques freely, since we were attacked by any techniques freely as well. to me doing legsweeps still means that you are in control of your partner and the condition (randori) itself.
Quote:

2. During randori, I sometimes find that when cornered to a particular position, I had the urge to ROLL / ukemi out of the attack (in - between two attackers) or crouch and kaiten myself out of danger.
yours still better, at least you still have grace. I might push my partners aside to give some room for me to move. Anyway in jiyu waza the idea is your partner can't hit you, so if you have to roll/crouch to avoid the attack it doesn't matter. This one is useful especially in long randori where your mind sometimes stuck.
Quote:

3. Sometimes when we are taken down we found that we can extricate ourselves and roll back to standing position. Should we continue the randori?
Hell yeah!!
Quote:

Or do we fail? ( I'm just asking this one in the case of an examination, in the dojo we can probably continue )
if it's come to examination i'll leave it to the sempais to answer, but if i were the shihan grading you i might reduce your point a bit, but that's just me....
Quote:

Or, what If an uke's attack connects? can we continue the randori?
meaning??:confused:

L. Camejo 01-25-2004 09:55 PM

Quote:

Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Larry;

I'm starting to play a little bit more with toshu randori and want to introduce a little bit more punch/kick play with the more advanced students.

If Shiai is your goal your randori needs to keep the strict rules in mind but more often than not we play. Sometimes there is such a beautiful opening that just begs for a non-Shiai technique. If you start adding these elements the full-blown randori is pretty much out of the question - but we do have less intense variations where they can fit in just fine.

Sounds like we are on the same wavelength Peter. Have gradually started adding more and more attacks (strikes) to what is basically hiki tate geiko at maximum. Thinking of getting some light gloves (ufc type) for folks in the event that hand strikes make contact with some force.

There are openings where a lot of non-shiai techniques can be applied very nicely - sometimes they show up in our randori, but like I said, it does not get to the full resistance part for safety reasons. My instructor mainly instructed randori for shiai, which is why I've adopted the approach. However recently I've been slowly expanding on that basic pattern.

Even bought a foam covered bokken to do some weapon randori as well. Should be interesting for opening up the range of techniques as well.

L.C.:ai::ki:

indomaresa 01-26-2004 08:14 AM

Thanks for the shodokan link, Larry

But if the techniques allowed for each attack in competition is fixed, wouldn't people naturally develop ways to resist them?

I recently watched some tomiki competition videos, and understood the need for competition now. I wish we could do it here too, It'd spice things up a bit.

foam covered-bokkens? omygosh, that's my dream come true. Did you buy it online? what is the foam like?

------

During intense randori, a lot of things can happen and I'm surprised at what some people can do, or resort to. for example; someone I know will jump over an uke's fallen body to avoid the attacker coming from behind :) or another person will SUDDENLY be proficient in atemi when cornered.

I personally even executed a sutemi-waza once during jiyuwaza. shocked myself. :) Are these allowed in yudansha test randori?

I like it when skilled people used kuzushi to take down ukes, but I don't really like the way it inspired juniors to do the same. It may be a good application of aikido principle but it really makes for a boring and uninteresting jiyu-waza.:)

Ki-aikido practitioners do this a LOT

----

I personally never rolled out from corners, but is seriously tempted to do so. Just wondering what are people's thoughts on it though. Since everybody's okay with it..... I'm seriously considering it for my next randori.

Reza, I was referring to situations when you were throwing someone and when turning around... WHAM! someone's shomen got you good.

Realized that question is redundant, but is wondering if you just continue with the randori and pretend it didn't happen? or bow out? (I think it'd be fair to bow out..)

Don_Modesto 01-26-2004 09:01 AM

Quote:

Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
foam covered-bokkens? omygosh, that's my dream come true.

DJM: Too much wind resistance; artificial feel. Bujin sells Yagyu shinai, leather covered bamboo shinai. The feel is faster than foam--an it stings more--but not dangerous as BOKKEN: http://bujindesign.com/weapons2.html...apons2.html#as


Yann Golanski 01-26-2004 09:12 AM

Maresa,

The 17 basic techniques in Shodokan do have counters. It's a separate kata. There are some pictures off the york-aikido site should you wish to look at them.

However, you can use any kuzushi to break balance and once uke's balance is gone, you can do any technique out of the 17! It leaves you a _huge_ array of thigns you can do. When you are uke, you must try to keep your balance at all cost. Otherwsie, tori is going to make you fly using whatever he or she feels like it.

If your sensei is really against randori, then you can play with toshu. Ask a fellow student to pair up with you. One of you starts a technique, any technique. The other then must find a way to get out of it then he appilies a technique. Continue swaping roles for as long as you can. Try slowly at first and keep as relaxed as possible. It's not about throwing your patrner, it's about blending.

L. Camejo 01-31-2004 06:00 PM

Quote:

Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Thanks for the shodokan link, Larry

But if the techniques allowed for each attack in competition is fixed, wouldn't people naturally develop ways to resist them?

Hi Maresa, sorry I took so long to reply. The techniques allowed for each attack in competition is fixed to the basic 17 of the randori no kata as Yann had pointed out. But this means that any possible variation of the techs in the basic 17 can be applied, the ones shown in the animations on the site I gave show only the very basic version. Variations on these techniques are allowed as the situation allows, so its sort of hard to resist by foreknowledge of technique, folks just tend to resist to wherever Tori is trying to take them at the point in time, not thinking about resisting a particular technique per se. Much of the resistance is to kuzushi, before the tech even takes form.
Quote:

foam covered-bokkens? omygosh, that's my dream come true. Did you buy it online? what is the foam like?
The foam bokkens work quite nicely for me when training things like ma ai, reaction and entering, and doing tachi dori with bokken. It helps students develop certain movements that may be dangerous with a normal bokken, and also helps them to get over the initial fear of someone coming at you with a bokken at medium to full speed as well, as in tachidori.

I found them at this site - www.wwmas.com -under the weapons section, or you can use this url -

http://www.wwmas.com/frames/item.cgi...W&orderNo=3226

They have a padded and cushioned tip and the foam rubber keeps things safe unless one does not move at all from a strike and Tori comes in at full force without stopping. They are pretty light, which is why they are only used to teach specific things and not used for suburi or kumitachi training. I never put em up against a normal bokken they would tend to break or the padding will be damaged at the least.

I've seen the ones at bujin and I will admit to not having used them, but I don't get the feeling that they allow for the same degree of cushioning with the leather. Also, I would tend not to use anything but a solid, unprotected, good quality bokken for kumitachi. Have seen what can happen when low grade wood / bamboo gets shattereed and splinters fly.

By using the foam bokkens in randori, Tori gets to practice techs without too much fear of being damaged, while uke gets to practice counters while holding the bokken - it's extreme fun:).

L.C.:ai::ki:


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