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-   -   Poll: How natural are the technique movements in aikido to you? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4740)

AikiWeb System 12-07-2003 01:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of December 7, 2003:

How natural are the technique movements in aikido to you?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Extremely natural
  • Very natural
  • Natural
  • Somewhat natural
  • Not at all natural
Here are the current results.

Hanna B 12-07-2003 05:07 AM

It would be interesting if it was possible to relate the answers to how long people with certain opinion has been training. It takes a while before hanmi etc. feels natural.

wendyrowe 12-07-2003 12:24 PM

I've been studying aikido for seven months. I was amazed from the first move (irimi) at how incredibly natural and "right" everything felt.

I have a bit of trouble with spacial relations, so sometimes I don't get a new move until I've done it maybe 10 times -- but then I understand it and after another few dozen reps it feels great.

The surprising thing is that every so often we learn a technique that feels totally abnormal to me. Koshinage is the latest. I'm not sure yet exactly what it is that throws me off. Once I've practiced hard enough and often enough I can do the "abnormal" techniques, but they never feel as good as the rest -- it's like I have to think about them more so they don't flow as well and become part of me like the others.

mj 12-07-2003 04:32 PM

I have found that many of the people I know who do aikido who have not done other arts which require breakfalls do not like koshinage.

wendyrowe 12-07-2003 07:07 PM

Mark,

In my case, it's not the falling part of koshinage that feels wrong. When I'm nage, it feels awkward while I'm getting into position to perform koshinage on uke. I do OK with koshinage when I'm uke (I've taken breakfalls in my kenpo karate class), but I have to admit I enjoy a nice flying ukemi more.

Edward 12-08-2003 01:21 AM

If you think that turning your back to the opponent in synchronization with the attack instead of blocking it is natural, then aikido movements are natural ;)

sanosuke 12-08-2003 03:42 AM

i think the more experience we gained during practice the more natural our technique and movement will be.

Bussho 12-08-2003 06:40 AM

It would really depend on what you mean by natural.

In one sense all movement is natural, since it comes from you.

So the question could be would the movement give you any problems if you train it in the long run? The only answer to this is yes, since all movements , in the long run, will make the joints deteriate. Some can hold longer and some can't.

If the questions if it doens''t put strain on the body then the answer is no, since everthing puts some kind of strain on the body.

So maybe we are left with : Something that feels OK. And can that be natural? Nope, since it's a feeling an depened on the invidual it can't be natrual, but it can be the best thing for the person.

/Terje

tedehara 12-08-2003 01:27 PM

Quote:

Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
If you think that turning your back to the opponent in synchronization with the attack instead of blocking it is natural, then aikido movements are natural ;)

You never turn your back to an opponent.

Even when you're doing randori and there are people behind you, you never give them your back. You're always moving, keeping them in front of you. That's why this is a martial art.

Years ago in the incident with Count Dante, a judo guy got killed because he did a shoulder throw in a fight. You turn your back on your opponent in a shoulder throw and that's ok for a tournament, but this was a real fight. He got knifed in the back as he was throwing.

In a martial art like Aikido, you don't have to expose your back. If you do, it's a mistake.

Ron Tisdale 12-08-2003 03:12 PM

If you have good training in other arts, you may be sensing an opening in your koshi. Have your instructor or a senior grade watch while you do it. Have your uke see if they can apply a rear naked choke while you do it. There are ways to close these holes, but since there are many styles of koshi, and this is not on the mat, its too hard to really describe for me. But someone at your school can probably help out.

Ron

Hanna B 12-08-2003 07:26 PM

Off topic
 
Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
Years ago in the incident with Count Dante, a judo guy got killed because he did a shoulder throw in a fight

Count Dante? What does this mean?

SeiserL 12-10-2003 06:45 AM

Because of past training and experience,

many of the moves in Aikido did not feel "natural".

Now, after 9 years, they do.

aikidocapecod 12-10-2003 09:43 AM

I had some Karate and Kung Fu training before I began Aikido in 1986. After my first few Aikido classes...I found walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time a real chore!!!

After a few years of Aikido, the movements always felt contrived....forced....in other words....I could not do them!!

My Sensei then, Len Rose Sensei (God watch over his soul), had the patience of a Saint, and kept after me to not think of the movements as some strange martial arts move, but rather a simple everyday movement. Over the years moving has become less of an effort.

My Sensei now, Bill Gleason Sensei, has deepened my understanding of movement. When I watch Gleason Sensei move with Bokken, I do not see this move or that move, but rather I see one long flowing movement. One I hope to be able to come close to in another decade or so.

When I have my small class with some beginners, I try to make the movement seem like walking and turning when called by a friend. Or assimilate it to a dance step one may have done. Just so the students do not think of the move as some mystical step.

To answer the question,,,,,,

How natural are Aikido movements to me?

Some are as natural as walking now.....

When in the past they were most difficult.

A very good question.....one that has made me think.......

Thanks

ian 12-11-2003 05:50 AM

Quote:

Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
You never turn your back to an opponent...

Years ago in the incident with Count Dante, a judo guy got killed because he did a shoulder throw in a fight.

Also recall that when Ueshiba was challenged by a Judo guy he just struck the hip which the Judo bloke thrust out towards him in an atempt to do a hip throw (which unfortunately resulted in permanent damage).

I think when we start doing techniques they are unnatural because we are learning them in a formalised way. Aikido seems to be one of those things that is a complete whole, and therefore to penetrate it we must do little bits, but these aren't really aikido.

e.g. koshi nage is a useful technique, but you can only do it in the correct situation (i.e. strong attack where you are in close and they are already committed).

I think there is a boundary between learning techniques, and then discovering how the techniques fit the attack appropriately (and competition could prevent this happening because force would be used as a subsitute for skill).

Yes - aikido is natural, but only when your mind is open and the techniques are internalised!

Ian

ian 12-11-2003 05:57 AM

P.S. I was teaching a beginner who had only done ikkyo; I was going over some blending exercises which enable you to follow ukes movements and then we did some slow randori. I thought I'd let him have a go and he ended up doing kaiten-nage, irimi-nage, ikkyo, sumi-otoshi - I was amazed that these techniques drop out of blending so easily (although he didn't know what he was doing).

Because he was not trying to 'achieve' a technique, but just blending and following aikido principles, these techniques just appeared.

Ian

Alfonso 12-11-2003 02:09 PM

I find the movements all very natural

but not at all intuitive or easy to learn

if I move in a way that is unnatural to the way my body works, I take that as a sign that I screwed up..

Oryoki 12-14-2003 04:05 AM

natural to me
 
I studied Akido about 20 years ago but had to stop because my Ki was in my head and I would get too dizzy.

Then about 10 years ago my Ki moved to my heart and I rejoiced.

Perhaps soon my Ki will go where it belongs and I will lead a balanced life.

The things I learned were only openings to reality or natural processes if you will.

I find it very natural moving through a crowd extending my Ki forward to clear the way.

Ki breathing comes to me in times of stress or pain for relief, or just when I want to relax. It is very natural to breath with the entire body.

When in a strange situation being ready and never underestimating ones opponent is automatic and very natural.

So yes, after 20 years of not practicing Akido I would say it is natural to use.

tedehara 12-18-2003 10:30 PM

Re: Off topic
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
Count Dante? What does this mean?

Count Dante was from Chicago. I heard stories of my sensei's misspent youth with other martial artists. Some of them were karate types. One of them was Count Dante AKA John Keehan.

I guess if you're not from Chicago, or a Karate person, or a reader of 1960's comics, you're probably unaware of him. BTW he's not as evileyes evil as most people want to protray him as. If my sensei's stories are correct, he was more honorable than some who are presently favored in Karate circles.


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