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AsimHanif 11-30-2003 06:26 PM

Cross Training
 
I would be interested in knowing if there are any out there who cross train in other martial arts or some conditioning program to enhance their practice? If so, what type, how much, and how does it help?

boni tongson 11-30-2003 07:04 PM

for me sir, I train in Aikido to enhance my other martial arts studies and vice versa. How does it help? for me sir, body contact. most of the time when we train in Aikido it is always with somebody we can apply the techniques with (the uke). Kodokan Judo I think is very helpful also. my sensei would sometimes counter my kokyu nage with a one arm shoulder throw if there are lapses in my technique. try practicing randori with the uke attacking you with a shinai or bokken (thats Kendo). try doing it no control. (is this advisable sir Akiy?) Zhing-I's smashing fist (vertical fist punch) can enhance your munetsuki. and many many more. gets? ofcors sir i'm merely talking technical aspects of the art. and i'm not talking combining Aikido with other arts 'cause Aikido is already a system in itself. :)

Good day!

Thalib 11-30-2003 07:11 PM

I don't cross train, but I go to the gym at times (been lazy lately).

The only reason I exercise at the gym is that practicing Aikido in the dojo does not help me lose weight. Got a spare tire around the waistline. I know... I know... Budo advises us not to over-eat and not to consume things that harm us. Guess that's why I need to practice outside the dojo.

The more I practice Aikido, the more relaxed I feel. So Aikido is becoming less and less of a cardiovascular activity for me (actually it never was). So I go to the gym to get my workout.

sanosuke 11-30-2003 07:35 PM

i cross trained with ITF taekwon-do last time, but had to quit due to injury. the frequency is twice a week, two hrs training each, does it help? technically/phisically yes, because i gain some aikido insight from another practitioner's perspective. I can apply some aikido technique like tai-sabaki during TKD sparring too. philosophically/mentally no, because being a fighting art it somehow disturb me when i tried to relate aikido and TKD mentality. i'm still eager to cross train, though. i'm looking for some iaido class now, don't know if there's any in indonesia....

anyway IMO, any art you are cross train with make sure that it doesn't contradict very much like the one in my case. look for the one with similar nature/philosophy like aikido-jujutsu/judo, aikido-iaido/kenjutsu, karate/tkd-muay thai, aikido-tai chi, aikido-wing-chun etc.

paw 12-01-2003 06:12 AM

It might be helpful to clarify things.

Cross Training is undertaking a secondary activity with the goal of benefiting a primary activity. (For example, roller skating during summer to improve one's ice skating performance.) But the secondary activity is often changed or discarded when the benefits have been reached. (Once the ice rink opens, you stop roller skating.)

That's different that undertaking two activities at the same time. My wife bikes and runs. She does both year round, and does not bike to improve her running nor run to improve her biking --- they are two separate activities.

IMO, most people say they are cross training when they are really doing two activites at once.

Regards,

Paul

ian 12-01-2003 06:39 AM

This type of thing has come up before, but anyway, I like to see myself write:

I've done a bit of Judo and Karate (and Tang Soo do), and although they were quite enlightening, I found they restricted my approach to self-defence (mainly due to lacking the concept that someone could do something different from outside their own particular style). The differences between many martial arts aren't techniques, it is emphasis and training style. In aikido we sacrifice one type of realism (through comeptition) to gain in another (we are aware of more things the attacker could do, and examine body movement principles).

As a responsbile aikidoka, it is important to understand other martial artists and what they can do, but not necessarily to train in the same way.

Main conditioning execises:

swimming

running

simple bokken cutting

basic atemis for common aikido techniques

catching bricks with fingers (strength for pressure-point striking)

chi gung

All these benefit my aikido

Ian

ian 12-01-2003 06:44 AM

P.S. I do go down the gym on occasion, but not regularly as this increases my body weight (and reduces speed of my body movement and efficiency of muscle use). Also, as an aside, weights are unlikely to reduce your own weight (and the same applies for swimming). Cycling and running are generally the best things.

paw 12-01-2003 07:59 AM

Ian,
Quote:

P.S. I do go down the gym on occasion, but not regularly as this increases my body weight (and reduces speed of my body movement and efficiency of muscle use). Also, as an aside, weights are unlikely to reduce your own weight (and the same applies for swimming). Cycling and running are generally the best things.
re: the gym

If your time in the gym reduces your speed, quickness or flexibility you aren't training properly. This is often caused by training using bodybuilding methodology instead performance based methodology.

re: losing weight and lean muscle mass

It should come as no surprise that increasing lean muscle mass is very effective for losing weight. It is a fact that the calorie demands of 50 kg of lean muscle mass are greater than 45 kg of lean muscle mass and 5 kg of fat. Assuming caloric intake is the same, the individual with more lean muscle mass will lose more weight, even without engaging in any physical activity. Finally, strength training has been shown to aid in the increase of lean muscle mass.

If one wishes to increase one's lean muscle mass and not increase their overall weight it is simply a matter of constructing a proper routine.

Regards,

Paul

SeiserL 12-01-2003 08:08 AM

IMHO, I agree that most people think having other workouts is cross training even if it doesn't directly enhance the first or primary activity. Since learning and conditioning is mostly activity specific, cross training has a limited enhancement correlation.

I also suggest that a firm foundation in an art is a good idea before cross training.

That being said,

Yep, been doing FMA/JKD longer than I have been doining Aikido, though Aikido is my primary focus now. Also swim, run, jump rope, bag work, and lift weights.

vanstretch 12-01-2003 08:33 AM

hi lynn, good point. after reading this thread thus far, i still wonder what is "in shape" ? a bodybuilder is in muscular shape,but how many bodybuilders do aikido? the few that i have trained with are very strong but are easy to make lose their balance, maybe this is due to them being newer to the art and from other backgrounds. but they seem very easy to sense and take off balance. ps-not knocking you muscular people out here but i wonder as i look at the highly proficient/elite athletes in aikido(from my experience and exposure), there seems to not be alot of over muscularness at those levels. am i wrong or off track?

paw 12-01-2003 08:53 AM

Daniel,

I'm not Lynn, but I hope neither you nor Lynn mind ....
Quote:

hi lynn, good point. after reading this thread thus far, i still wonder what is "in shape" ?
It depends. Who's asking and in what context? A world class marathon runner has fantastic "wind"...and I'll bet they wouldn't last ten minutes in a boxing ring before "gassing". The runner is "in shape" for running, but not "in shape" for boxing. The boxer is "in shape" for boxing, but probably not "in shape" for running a marathon.
Quote:

a bodybuilder is in muscular shape,but how many bodybuilders do aikido? the few that i have trained with are very strong
Full stop. A strong bodybuilder is an exception to the rule. A bodybuilder is strong compared to a regular person, but compared to a strength athlete the same size (powerlifter, olympic lifter, strongman competitor) they aren't even close to strong.

Back in the day, the current Mr. Olympia (best bodybuilder in the world) was known for his "heavy" deadlifts (over 500 pounds!) He was 270+ at the time. As a mediocre powerlifter, I could deadlift 500 at 165. The top lifter's in the world are pulling 600+ at 165 ---- and that's in front of judges in drug-tested events, not some gym lift for a photo shoot.
Quote:

ps-not knocking you muscular people out here but i wonder as i look at the highly proficient/elite athletes in aikido
What do you mean by elite athlete? For me that would be a nationally ranked competitor or higher.

Second, not all elite athletes are created equal. An elite runner isn't going to much (if any) carryover with their physical ability an aikido (running is too dissimlar to aikido). An elite judo player would (the physical demands of judo would be similar to aikido).

Regards,

Paul

Dario Rosati 12-01-2003 10:44 AM

Re: Cross Training
 
Quote:

Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
I would be interested in knowing if there are any out there who cross train in other martial arts or some conditioning program to enhance their practice? If so, what type, how much, and how does it help?

I will start Katori Shinto Ryu in January, cause it matches and combines extremely well with Aikido (posture, movements, even tecniques), and is extremely fascinating and effective "per se".

I'll return here in a few months and let you know ;)

AsimHanif 12-01-2003 11:05 AM

I guess everyone more or less does either cross train or engage in other activities to either enhance their primary art or to fill some other physical/mental/spiritual void.

Reza K - I recently had a discussion with someone who noted that all karate kata begin (inherently) defensive. I personally couldn't think of a kata (Washin-ryu & Goju ryu)to contradict that statement. But I wouldn't say that the goal of karate is to protect the attacker.

For myself, I engage in cardio and resistance training 3 days a week (ongoing activities) but also karate & boxing sporatically (crosstraining.

Anyone doing Tai Chi? I did for about a year a long time ago and found it really helped my karate.

AsimHanif 12-01-2003 11:15 AM

Also to me "in shape" means having a functional body. Which in my case is a body that performs well when called upon. Of course our standards are a personal choice. But I like the ability to take ukemi at a high level or run a few miles at a reasonable pace (for my age:-), lift my body weight, etc.

It has nothing to do with my physical appearance or dimensions - necessarily.

Jesse Lee 12-02-2003 02:54 PM

I used to train in Tae Kwon Do and then in Tung Su Do, then left those and found may way to Aikido. For several years now I have cross-trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, mainly b/c (1) ju jitsu / judo is one of aikido's founding pillars, and (2) I believe that if you are concerned with street-effective self defense, you need to have a clue about grappling, period and end of story.

I like that BJJ and aikido both support the noble ideal of controling aggression while inflicting no lasting physical harm.

I think it helps my aikido in that techniques flow really nicely from aikido into BJJ. I am not too good at flowing them the other direction, but maybe that will come later :-D

If I had time to cross-train more, I would probably take up kendo, as another window into the roots of aikido.

boni tongson 12-02-2003 05:14 PM

Quote:

I believe that if you are concerned with street-effective self defense, you need to have a clue about grappling, period and end of story.
i don't know if anybody would agree but sir combat on the street won't, in most of the case, involve grappling. when you let yourself grapple an opponent on the ground you've put yourself on a vulnerable position and as much as combat on the street is concerned your dead. ofcors, i'm not trying to get you irritated or something sir. and I have to add sir Aikido is very good in handling multiple opponents.

Good day :)

Jesse Lee 12-02-2003 05:35 PM

Boni, no irritation whatsoever ;), totally agree with you that aikido has answers for multiple opponents whereas grappling does not. Same with weapons, you are dead if you grapple before dealing with that knife or whatever.

I don't have much experience in real fights, knock on wood, but my sense is that if either fighter has a bit of takedown experience and wants to take it to the ground, there is a very good chance that it is going to the ground. From there, unless you can get up and away instantly, it is the grappler's world.

Just my uninformed opinion, could be wrong :cool:

sanosuke 12-02-2003 06:33 PM

Quote:

Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
Reza K - I recently had a discussion with someone who noted that all karate kata begin (inherently) defensive. I personally couldn't think of a kata (Washin-ryu & Goju ryu)to contradict that statement. But I wouldn't say that the goal of karate is to protect the attacker.

Asim, every budo is meant to be defensive, but offensive techniques sometimes might triggered human's primal instict of fighting, in which without proper teaching from capable teacher can cloud the true purpose of budo.

Jeanne Shepard 12-02-2003 07:37 PM

Pilates are good for helping you hook into your center.

Jeanne

sanosuke 12-02-2003 08:59 PM

Quote:

Jeanne Shepard wrote:
Pilates are good for helping you hook into your center.

Jeanne

no kidding??:confused:

Williamross77 12-03-2003 12:21 AM

if aikido is to help you lose weight, you should try " aiki arobics" or other wise known as the hour long aikitaiso workout.

our try 20 full munites of ukimi.

if that won't do it ... well maybe your diet is to blame, by the way you should do that of which i speek, on top of the regular aikido classes, at least three times a week.

sanosuke 12-03-2003 12:35 AM

Quote:

anyway IMO, any art you are cross train with make sure that it doesn't contradict very much
Quote:

Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
Reza K - I recently had a discussion with someone who noted that all karate kata begin (inherently) defensive. I personally couldn't think of a kata (Washin-ryu & Goju ryu)to contradict that statement. But I wouldn't say that the goal of karate is to protect the attacker.

Asim, here's some addition that i quote from www.24fightingchickens.com/101/02_karate.html

(no offense intended to all karateka)

Quote:

Aikido is more merciful in that an opponent can be neutralized without permanently maiming him. However, Shotokan is optimized to deliver damage effectively and quickly such that multiple opponents can be disabled in a comparatively short time. Victims of Shotokan blows are not expected to be able to stand back up after being struck.

p00kiethebear 12-03-2003 01:45 AM

Alot of aikido techniques come from ancient kenjutsu. So i decided to augment my aikido by practicing sword as well. It helps alot. When you take aikido and kenjutsu you start to see where the two arts overlap as far as movements go.

Williamross77 12-03-2003 09:08 AM

IMHO... Aikido is the one art that does incompas all other arts, I trained in a little BJJ, kung fu and of course Kenpo, i see the relationship in the movements, it is the mind set that is different, as for the coment that it is rare that a fight go to the ground,,,

well the Cops speak with guess that at least 75% of their arrests wind up in a ground wrestle. the ones that practice Aikido find themselves there a lot less but it still happens. the fights i have been in my younger years tended to not go to the ground, but i traing specifically to not go to the ground.

good luck!

paw 12-03-2003 10:03 AM

Quote:

i don't know if anybody would agree but sir combat on the street won't, in most of the case, involve grappling. when you let yourself grapple an opponent on the ground you've put yourself on a vulnerable position
grappling = A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other or alternatively To seize firmly, as with the hands

Grappling doesn't imply groundwork.

Regards,

Paul


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