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-   -   Poll: Does aikido contain anything technically that is unique amongst martial arts? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4645)

AikiWeb System 11-16-2003 12:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 16, 2003:

Does aikido contain anything technically that is unique amongst martial arts?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

Michael Karmon 11-16-2003 03:16 AM

Quote:

AikiWeb System wrote:
AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 16, 2003:

Does aikido contain anything technically that is unique amongst martial arts?

In one word - NO.

There are no new techniques in Aikido. All martial techniques were all discovered in the beginning of time in every warring society anew. O-Sensei himself (to my knowledge) did not presume as much. The Aikido is an evolution and refienment of other systems.

As a pround Aikidoka and after studying Karate, Krav-Maga, Kung-fu and Tai-chi and reading many books and articles on the subject I can honestly state that there are about a dozen techniques out there. All we do is find a new emphasis and a new approach or context.

The power of the oriental martial arts is that the practice of war is given a respectable, spiritual, philosofical depth. Aikido has this power and it novelty lies there

sanosuke 11-16-2003 07:42 PM

the techniques might be the same but its the approach that makes aikido unique.

MikeE 11-16-2003 11:04 PM

The only technique that seems unique to the Aikido (not withstanding Daito-ryu) is Yonkyo. I have not seen it in any other art.

I of course have not studied all arts so I'm probably wrong.

Abasan 11-17-2003 02:21 AM

I believe the yonkyo point is striked and used to trap attackers hand in kali, silat and possibly kalari payat. Maybe chin na too but i'm not sure, it does use the elbow in that particular angle to unbalance opponent though.

Still, you are right in that it is not applied in the yonkyo fashion we do.

Thalib 11-17-2003 02:30 AM

I always say that Aikido has nothing technically special. There are many other martial arts that have way better techniques than Aikido.

Aikido is not about techniques. Aikido is about applying "aiki" in everything we do. This goes beyond any technique.

Michael Karmon 11-17-2003 02:33 AM

Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Aikido is not about techniques. Aikido is about applying "aiki" in everything we do. This goes beyond any technique.

Very nicely put

Ted Marr 11-17-2003 01:23 PM

This is one of those questions that very few people should be able to answer... If you answer "yes", then that means that you know the technical repitiore of every other martial art well enough to say definitively that it does not contain Aikido elements. If we want to apply this stringently, it's quite probably impossible to answer yes. Likewise, if you answer "no", that implies an encyclopedic knowledge of Aikido techniques, and at least some outside experience.

Regardless, I'm going to comment, because I like hearing myself talk... or type, or whatever.

From what I've seen, in the narrow view, of course every school has techniques that are unique to it... that is what makes it a school. Of course, the within-Aikido variation in a technique may exceed the variation between any one particular dojo and another one outside of Aikido.

In the broader view, all martial arts kind of converge... there is one basic generic form for the human body, and there are a limited number of ways to manipulate it efficiently. All styles eventually come down to what they emphasize.

That said, I haven't heard of any other art that puts any particular stress on 'leading' your opponent.

ikkainogakusei 11-18-2003 05:20 PM

Quote:

AikiWeb System wrote:
Does aikido contain anything technically that is unique amongst martial arts?
[list]
[*] I don't do aikido
[*] Yes
[*] No

Funny that the vast majority of votes say 'yes' on the technically unique part, but it seems that more responses in discussion lean toward no. I don't know all of aikido, nor do I know all of every other martial art. Intuitively I suspect that in terms of technique; aikido isn't unique.

I have seen ikkyo through sankyo (sankyo even in greco-roman wrestling)as well as kotegaeshi, shihonage, a similar koshinage, and others in other forms.

Does anyone know of a technique that aikido posesses in it's repetoire that does not exist in aikijujutsu?

:ai:

drDalek 11-19-2003 07:41 AM

Quote:

Ted Marr wrote:
That said, I haven't heard of any other art that puts any particular stress on 'leading' your opponent.

Sniping? Like with a rifle? surely this or a variation of the principle (throwing rocks, bow and arrow, crossbow, canon) have been practiced for about the same amount of time as other MAs and leading an opponent (so as to let the projectile intercept your opponent's course) is a well known, often practiced principle.

Ted Marr 11-19-2003 07:52 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear. By "leading" I didn't mean the kind of leading that is done with projectile weapons to hit where your opponent will be. Instead, I meant the kind of leading where, by your actions, you try to provoke certain reactions from your uke, which, although martially appropriate in and of themselves, help set up things further in the technique. For example, any of the iriminages where you do something to make your uke lean forward, then let them start to stand up a bit before doing the actual irimi.

deepsoup 11-19-2003 09:46 AM

Quote:

Ted Marr wrote:
Instead, I meant the kind of leading where, by your actions, you try to provoke certain reactions from your uke

You mean like a feint ?

(As found in martial arts, sports, card games and playground silliness the world over)

Its older than language.

Sean

x

L. Camejo 11-19-2003 10:48 AM

Interesting how life imitates internet, or vice versa :)

Gave my class a little lecture on this same subject last nite.

Happened after a guy was in the process of being taken down with aigamae ate (irimi nage), which was converted into a light strangle hold at the point of falling. The Uke yelled "That is not Aikido". The Tori was a bit dumbfounded at the response, since we practiced that tech about 3 weeks ago during the kata part of practice as variations off of aigamae ate.

This led me to give em a little talk about the techniques and the fact that there is nothing in Aikido that can't be found if one looks at koryu bujutsu, chin na and other arts. Likewise, "Aikido" may not be limited to a particular group of body techniques (though kansetsu and atemi waza make up the main), as it really relates to the "how" of a technique being executed rather than "what" can be executed "as Aikido".

It's about perception and what we view Aiki to be. We can keep our minds in a box, and that will be the limit of our understanding, or we can take the basics and expand as far as our imaginations allow. If we stay true to the basics and principles of Aikido, the manifestation of what we come up with should still be Aikido.

Personally, I've come across shaolin kung fu teachers who show chin na joint manipulation techniques and call them "Aikido techniques". To those who don't know, they may look the same (a wrist lock is a wrist lock) but the principles applied to get to the technique are often very different imho. In this same way, chin na techniques can be applied using Aikido principles.

Just a few thoughts.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Roger C. Marks 11-22-2003 07:57 AM

Quote by Ted Marr'I meant the kind of leading where, by your actions, you try to provoke certain reactions from your uke, which, although martially appropriate in and of themselves, help set up things further in the technique.'

Well Ted, most of high level Judo is about setting up your opponent, meaning that you have to fool the other person and get them to put themselves into the danger zone. We practice 'Renraku waza' (combination techniques) which are basically either techniques applied and the opponent avoids and places themselves in a vulnerable position, or techniques 'faked', maybe a distraction technique, solely with the purpose of making the opponent react straight into the path of the 'real' technique. Alternatively, you can use counter techniques (go no sen) which use the movement of the opponents technique to allow you to throw them - often you 'sucker' them into trying a specific technique on you, solely with the purpose of your countering.

BKimpel 11-22-2003 09:46 AM

Two points concerning Aikido's uniqueness of technique (not touching any of the philosophical or spiritual differences)…

One:

I find it a bit odd that people are instantly able to compare "everything to everything" so easily. While our human bodies haven't changed physiologically since the birth of mankind, combative arts based on those bodies have changed a thousand times over and the arts of today are NOT the arts of yesterday.

Those types of comparisons are about as valuable as comparing the abacus to the modern day computer. While it may be amusing (for about one second) to ponder how early on humans developed a device to aid computing -- those "devices" are day and night apart in terms of refinement and applicable usefulness today. I will never use an abacus.

Two:

Because Aikido's roots are unique (i.e. how it was developed), its approach to defense is also unique.

The root art Aiki-Bujutsu (or Daito-Ryu, or whatever name they chose to change it to as it was passed from family member to family member) was born out of a time when every samurai carried a sword at all times.

ALL of the movements in Aiki-Bujutsu are based on the sword in some way:

- You are being attacked by someone with a sword

- Someone is trying to take your sword (or control it usually before you have it drawn)

- Many people are attacking with swords (or weapons)

- You are in a Japanese-style building with a low roof and must use Shikko (either to defend against a sword or to use you own sword).

Out of those roots, you end up with a style that is IMO the most comprehensive martial art on the planet.

Aikido will teach you to:

-Defend against almost any weapon (since most weapons are used by the hand)

-Defend against being grappled in almost any way (not all ways are taught by every dojo, but there is usually a way none the less)

-Defend against multiple attackers (in the same way you defend against single attackers)

-Defend standing up, or in Shikko in low ceiling scenarios (not everyday certainly, but when it happens you are in the advantage to the guy that's hunched over)

Furthermore O-sensei refined those movements (very evident from watching Daito-Ryu of old - very stiff and rigid), and those smoother movements better enable handling multiple attackers (IMO).

Best of all, because of it's diversity it is still VERY applicable today. Very few arts can boast being able to handle so many diverse types of attacks, with a consistent mechanism.

So while yes you may have seen one or two Aiki-like moves in other arts, how many of those arts even address that list above? Not too many I'll wager :)

Michael Karmon 11-23-2003 05:08 AM

Quote:

Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Interesting how life imitates internet, or vice versa :)

Happened after a guy was in the process of being taken down with aigamae ate (irimi nage), which was converted into a light strangle hold at the point of falling. The Uke yelled "That is not Aikido". The Tori was a bit dumbfounded at the response...

Interesting how life imitates internet, or vice versa :) ;)

Last practice I was training with a newbee, a Karate switch-over. The young man got the usual explanation of "softness, non-violent, harmony". We practiced Ikkyo-omote on a Tsuki attack. The guy gave a good mid-section tsuki and froze solid after performance, karate-style. Naturally, I responded with an Atemi, a fake kick to his groins and went for the waza. The next time he stiffened I faked a direct nose punch.

The guy was shocked, "Is this Aikido?" he asked after class, mixing soft with floppy etiquette with docile. Yep, I replied, Aikido has no 'fair play' inhibitions. Every techniques performed is potentially a broken bone, dislocated joint or deadly. Atemi is for me to take over your spirit. No Atemi is 'illegitimate' per-se, you can punch, kick, spit (yach :dead: ), or just fake a movement as long as you can take the balance off of your Nage.

Of course I explained and emphasized that within the Dojo we train more civil-like. :D
Quote:

Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Personally, I've come across shaolin kung fu teachers who show chin na joint manipulation techniques and call them "Aikido techniques". To those who don't know, they may look the same (a wrist lock is a wrist lock) but the principles applied to get to the technique are often very different imho. In this same way, chin na techniques can be applied using Aikido principles.

Just a few thoughts.

L.C.:ai::ki:

I have practiced Shaulin-Kungfu for several years and the associated Chin-Na (art of grappling, wrestling etc.). And I am still amazed on the resemblance between Aikido and Kungfu, especially elements that are derived from the "white Crain" approach/techniques of the Kungfu.

BKimpel 11-23-2003 09:48 AM

One other thing that I find to be technically unique in Aikido (I have never seen it's equivalent in any martial art other than certain kenjutsu styles (the very styles that influenced Aikido's design I suspect))…is the concept of omote and ura (or Irimi / Tenkan) being reinforced.

Omote and ura are THE tools to deal with multiple attackers. You use those variations to control where uke is going to land in order to protect yourself against multiple attackers.

Now while I am not saying no other art can handle multiple attackers, I AM saying that only Aikido (and some Kenjutsu schools) (IMO) make a concerted effort to move in a way as to place your body in a protected position at all times.

The tenkan movement itself is almost unique to Aikido (and some Kenjutsu schools). Almost in that I have seen a few martial arts styles that do something similar (no the same, just similar). But then again few other martial arts make a concerted effort to either be in uke's shikaku (dead angle) or extend uke over his/her shikaku (maybe Judo -- partially).

Chuck Clark 11-23-2003 02:29 PM

You will find the same principles you speak of in many internal Chinese arts as well as Escrime, Kali, and some Okinawan Karate systems. Similar principles also appear in certain styles of Western fencing.

L. Camejo 11-23-2003 08:08 PM

Quote:

C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
You will find the same principles you speak of in many internal Chinese arts as well as Escrime, Kali, and some Okinawan Karate systems. Similar principles also appear in certain styles of Western fencing.

This has been my experience as well. When one trains around long enough it may become evident that there is "nothing new under the sun" as far as MA technique goes so to speak. As indicated somewhere before, there are only so many ways to effectively strike, throw, bend, twist, compress etc. the human body.

Michael - Great story, reminds me of a similar situation that happened with a karateka at our dojo when my Sensei used to teach here, especially the stopping short and stiffening part.:)

From my limited experience with White Crane Kung Fu I tend to agree with you. Many movements are very similar to Aikido techniques, though they may begin differently (from kung fu style stances) the end result is identical to many Aikido waza (lots of Ikkyo variations in my book). Have been finding some of those similarities in Ba Gua Zhang as well. I remember training in Sheng Zhen Qigong with former Beijing Wushu Team Coach Li Jun Feng and learning some movements that were textbook Katate Dori Gyakugamae Ate (Sokumen). Which also lead me to realise that I could train some kata elements of my Aikido solo, which helped a lot for my Dan grading. Of course his take on the whole thing was that Aikido was Qigong :).

Just some more thoughts.

Arigato

L.C.:ai::ki:

Michael Karmon 11-24-2003 03:12 AM

Quote:

Bruce Kimpel (BKimpel) wrote:
One other thing that I find to be technically unique in Aikido (I have never seen it's equivalent in any martial art other than certain kenjutsu styles (the very styles that influenced Aikido's design I suspect))…is the concept of omote and ura (or Irimi / Tenkan) being reinforced.

Sorry, but this is not correct. My Sifu (Sensei in Chineses) would go on and on the subject. He refered to it as Inner Vs. Outer.

Furthermore he broke it down not only Uke's Ura/Omote (Outer/Inner) but also to Nage's position. So, the throw of Irrimi Nage would be: Uke to the outer (Ura) because he is thrown on his back and Nage's inner (Omote)becase it is done from withing the space in front of him.

The main point is that once you got your directions right you could not go into a situation where do not know what to do when entangled with and oponent. You just identify your current relative Omote/Ura position and change it.

There is nothing new under the sun

ikkainogakusei 11-24-2003 08:51 AM

Maybe I didn't catch if someone answered this question. Did anyone?

:D :ai:
Quote:

Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
Does anyone know of a technique that aikido posesses in it's repetoire that does not exist in aikijujutsu?

:ai:



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