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David Yap 10-30-2003 09:10 PM

What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
I just heard that one of our local dojo affiliated with Aikikai had declared itself as an independent dojo and I believe that it is the first and only independent aikido dojo in my country.

What exactly is an independent dojo? My brief understanding of the term "independent" is that the organisation or instructor concerned is non-affiliated to anyone or body (i.e. Aikikai or others) and it/he/she runs the organisation/dojo according to its/his/her objectives including setting the syllabus and gradings and issuing of ranks including dan grades.

Any independents out there care to enlighten me on the variations to my understanding above.

Regards

David

happysod 10-31-2003 02:48 AM

David, I'm not familiar with a single dojo going independant, but I was peripherally involved in setting up a new association a while back, which may be similar.

Essentially, what you described concerning non-affiliation etc. is correct. However, for insurance purposes, new associations/dojos normally do then join some sort of umberella organisation to ensure they are covered legally and have some sort of recourse if problems arise in the association and also for dan ranking. The organisation they join will normally be one of two type.

1. A generic martial arts council with fairly strong connections to some sort of government body.

2. An aikido asoociation which is best described as a cooperative "bank" of dojos.

In both cases, "style", syllabus, kyu gradings etc. are up to the individual dojos. It is only if the dojo wishes their students grades (and their own) to be recognised outside that dojo that stronger links are needed.

I was part-time in a dojo which seemed to be run as a separate entity as it switched associations three times in as many years. However, as gradings were not my interest, I found no problems with training there.

Hope it works out for you

john.burn 10-31-2003 04:01 AM

Hi David,

Yep, you're pretty much correct with what I would consider an 'independent' dojo certainly as far as the UK goes. In fact most of the Associations in the UK are independents - they have no links back to their respective styles hombu dojo, there are I think only 4 or 5 out of over 30 that I can think of as having direct links back to their styles hombu dojo.

FYI, the Association I belong to are independent and we're about the third largest in the UK at present with around 600 - 700 students.


Don_Modesto 10-31-2003 07:49 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
I just heard that one of our local dojo affiliated with Aikikai had declared itself as an independent dojo and I believe that it is the first and only independent aikido dojo in my country.

What exactly is an independent dojo? My brief understanding of the term "independent" is that the organisation or instructor concerned is non-affiliated to anyone or body (i.e. Aikikai or others) and it/he/she runs the organisation/dojo according to its/his/her objectives including setting the syllabus and gradings and issuing of ranks including dan grades.

Maybe. But in this country, with its multitude of Jpn SHIHAN, independent might have the meaning of affilitation directly with HONBU, bypassing the locals, although I don't know if these conditions apply in Malaysia.



For further info, see: http://www.aikikai.or.jp/Eng/info2/I...egulations.htm

Chapter 1 : GENERAL PRINCIPLE

Article 1 : AIM

1. The Aikikai Foundation - Aikido World Headquarters, in order to spread Aikido in countries throughout the world and to have a system which works smoothly, hereby lays downInternational Regulations.

2. The Aikikai Foundation Aikido World Headquarters shall be referred to hereinafter as the Hombu.

Chapter 2 : RECOGNITION BY THE HOMBU OF AIKIDO ORGANIZATIONS IN A GIVEN COUNTRY

Article 2 : HOMBU RECOGNITION

1. The Hombu will give Hombu Recognition to an Aikido organization whichit judges to have satisfied the following conditions. If more than one Aikido organization exist in a country due to national law and/or rules or any other reason the Hombu admits as appropriate, Hombu Recognition can be given to those organizations.

(1) The relevant Aikido organization has been established legally and has had more than five years of substantial Aikido activity since itfs establishment. It is not a single dojo of an individual person.

(2) The relevant Aikido organization has more than one affiliated dojo open to the public, and holds activities throughout the year.

(3) The head of management or the chief of Aikido instruction of the relevant Aikido organization (hereinafter referred to as the Person in Charge) is 4th dan or above. The Person in Charge is a permanent resident of the country of that organization.

(4) The relevant Aikido organization has more than one holder of 2nd dan of Aikido or above, who will assist the Person in Charge in establishing the committees for instructing and dan/kyu grading examination.

(5) The relevant Aikido organization has established a Headquarters, Regulations and a Directing Committee.

(6) Issuing of Hombu Recognition to the relevant Aikido organization will not cause any confusion or problem in the organizationfs country.

2. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition will represent its country in international Aikido activities. If more than one Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition exists in a country, those Aikido organizations should, if necessary, coordinate and cooperate with each other for domestic and international Aikido activities as appropriate in an amiable and timely manner based on the Aikido spirit established by the Founder of Aikido.

3. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition may be eligible to perform the following activities. The extent of possible activities depends on the dan rank of the Person In Charge.

(1) Issuing of kyu grades (See Article 14)

(2) Examination of dan grades (See Article

9.1)

(3) Application for the registration of dan grades (See Article 8)

(4) Application for the examination of dan grades ( See Article 9.1)

(5) Application for the recommendation of dan grades (See Article 9.2)

(6) Certification of instructors (See Article 17)

(7) Receiving assistance from the Hombu

(8) Joint activities with the Hombu concerning Aikido

4. With respect to an Aikido organization which has not been given Hombu Recognition in accordance with Article 2.1 because it does not satisfy the conditions for Hombu Recognition, the Hombu will, if it deems necessary, give instruction to enable it to fulfill the conditions for Hombu Recognition, and assistance in developing the organization. Furthermore, matters concerning dan grades, are subject to the provisions of

Article 6.1. In this case, gHombu Recognitionh is to be read as gsubject to the provision of Article 2.4, and examination for dan grades will be conducted by the Hombu or a person delegated by the Hombu.

Article 3 ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES

To an Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition, a Certificate of Hombu Recognition will be issued through established procedure.

Article 4 MATTERS TO OBSERVE

1. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must adhere to the following principles.

(1) An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must respect and follow the spirit of Aikido established by the Founder, Ueshiba Morihei, and basic principles concerning the dissemination of Aikido established by the Hombu.

(2) Dan grades are legitimated by the Doshu of Aikido. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must hold in esteem the Aikido dan grades legitimated by the Doshu. The members of that organization must obtain dan grades to be legitimated by the Doshu and registered at the Hombu regardless of a situation in which national dan grades are issued by the country or government due to the national legislation or some other reason.

(3) An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition shall establish a teaching system and examination structure for dan and kyu grades, such as an Instructing Committee and a Dan/Kyu Examination Committee.

(4) An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must keep close contact with and cooperate with the Hombu and also with the instructor(s) dispatched by the Hombu staying in its country. Also it shall coordinate and cooperate with the Hombu regarding the acceptance of instructor(s) to be dispatched by the Hombu for a short period.

(5) An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition shall keep contact, coordinate and cooperate, as appropriate, with other Aikido organization(s) in its country to promote friendly relations. Also it is recommended that a type of umbrella organization for those Aikido organizations should be established.

(6) An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition shall abide by the provisions of this Regulation in addition to the items mentioned above.

2. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must submit to Hombu a written agreement mentioning (1) through

(6) of the Article 4.1 above.

Article 5 CANCELLATION OF HOMBU RECOGNITION

In a case where an Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition violates the provisions of these Regulations and creates serious obstacles for the dissemination of Aikido by the Hombu, the Hombu will, both verbally and in writing, urge the adherence to the provisions of these Regulations. If the organization does not demonstrate to do so, Hombu Recognition may be cancelled. The qualifications of the Aikido organization (Chapter 4) will cease to exist.

Abasan 11-01-2003 09:20 AM

Well we don't have a prolific number of Japanese shihans here in Malaysia. We have one. He's the head of aikikai malaysia.

And yes, the dojo that seperated from aikikai malaysia is none other than mine. Since i'm not the sensei, i have no answers for you.

All i can say is, i don't see any changes in my aikido style. As far as i'm concerned, we are still practicing aikido. We still give respects to all aikidokas and my sensei has never stopped me from practicing with any other dojos or senseis.

I love the relaxed attitude we have on this.

Nafis Zahir 11-01-2003 02:33 PM

I used to go to an "independent" dojo. They did pay dues to the Aikikai in Japan, but that was only because they needed to be able to give you Shodan certification. For example, my old instructor never to anyone about the aikikai blue books, nor would he let you have it. That was because they do not associate with any other dojos or instrctors and do not want their students training anywhere else. They teach that the Iwama style is the only true style and that anything else you learn is garbage. The one thing they do say that I agree with, is that they got tired of all of the politics. When I left, I asked for my blue book. My shodan ranking was marked by the Late Toyoda Shihan with whom the had links to. Probably for this reason. But they didn't want us to do any techniques that Toyoda Shihan showed us and often ridiculed his style behind his back. What hipocrites! Anyway, independent means that they want to stay to themselves and not have anyone tell them what to do, how to test, how to grade, what techniques or weapons are required for this or that. That's cool. If you know your stuff, what difference does a piece of paper make anyway? It's only for show. They may not recognize your rank, but they will recognize your technique!

Abasan 11-02-2003 05:14 AM

"They may not recognize your rank, but they will recognize your technique!"

Thats about as honest as you can get in any dojo.

David Yap 11-03-2003 01:29 AM

Re: Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Maybe. But in this country, with its multitude of Jpn SHIHAN, independent might have the meaning of affilitation directly with HONBU, bypassing the locals, although I don't know if these conditions apply in Malaysia...<snipped>...

Thanks, Don, for the regulations on affiliation with Aikikai. As a rule, Aikikai Hombu does not accept direct affiliation from a sole dojo. Hence, for the dojo in question if it still seek recognition from Aikikai, it still need to affiliate itself with a body that is recognised by Aikikai Hombu. That's not a problem as precedently (as everyone knows)Aikikai Hombu does not stop member bodies from accepting cross-border affiliations. For example, there is another body in Malaysia that claimed recognition from Aikikai Hombu and the sponsor is an Aikikai Shihan residing in New York, thousand of miles away and only give instructions probably once a year for a day or two in a closed seminar.

What one is "independent", does one call his/her art "Aikikai Aikido" or "My Aikido" or just "Aikido"? The art of aikido is beyond techniques, the goal is character and spirit - and it is non-gradeable.

Regards

David

David Yap 11-03-2003 04:21 AM

Re: Re: Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
...

What one is "independent", ...

Sorry for the typo, actually meant "When.." not "What.."

David

Abasan 11-03-2003 10:34 PM

Well, that named association with the shihan from New York is verily more active then the officially recognised aikikai association. For better or worst, thats the truth of it. They have more members, they do more international seminars and they get things done. And its not closed... I've joined that seminar and i enjoyed learning from Sugano sensei although its different in style. There were hundreds of ppl there, but he still managed to mingle and I got the chance to take uke for him. I appreciate that. The instructors in that association are also long standing Aikikai instructors here.

As regards to the shihan only giving some 1 or 2 seminars a year, it doesn't detract much from what's happening right now with the present Malaysian Aikikai HQ and its affliated dojos. So I see no difference at all.

I think one of the reason why some dojos choose to become independant is because they want to do stuff that the head of the group doesn't want. Like hold more seminars maybe (with outside senseis invited), or do more camps with a lot less red tape. Aikikai Malaysia's been around for a long time now, I've not attended a single camp/seminar sponsored by it at all. Because there's been none. Anything at all has been organised by dojo's independantly.

If I'm not mistaken, whenever Yoshinkan malaysia opens up a new dojo, they get sponsored somewhat by the Japan HQ. I'm not dicing this, I think its great. It shows that your efforts are regarded.

If you want a united association, then that association has to mean something to its members. Maybe if you want to gather us all 'indies' out there, a good way is to have the HQ sponsor say... instructors classes, joint dojo sessions, monthly visits, etc etc. As HQ, the responsibility is greater and its to serve all its members not just its dojo members or serve out the black belts.

My last post "All i can say is, i don't see any changes in my aikido style." If what I was doing was 'Aikikai Aikido' previously, and if I'm no longer from an 'Aikikai Dojo' then my aikido would probably be 'Aikido Formerly Known As Aikikai Aikido' or AFKAAA for short.

David Yap 11-04-2003 07:58 PM

Thank you, guys, for the replies. They affirmed my understanding of the definition of an "independent " dojo that is non-alignment or non-affiliation.

Thanks again, Don, for the reference to Aikikai's regulations. Again, as I have observed, the rules are not cast in stone.

I did not ask "Why dojo operators go independent?". I am not going to anyway - THIS IS the end of my thread. I would weigh these reason to be more on the commercial rather than politics. Politics are more often the veils. This question, I expect would generate a lot of "political" responses that would most time be indiscrete, personal, ugly and distorted. Most times, the responses would be from students who know half the truth or can't tell the difference due to blind loyalty and hence immature to judge ones character and know the true meaning of budo (the martial way).

If you guys want to continue on this line, I appreciate it very much if you can start another new thread.

Thanks, goodbye & happy training.

David

PS. Unless the instructions in aikido go against the essence and principles of O Sensei's teaching - I would say Aikido is just (his) Aikido.

Koren Ko 04-13-2006 02:34 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Hi David,

After I saw your thread, I somehow reminded of my past experience when practicing Karate.

I was learning a certain stlye of Karate-do up to Black belt for atleast 7years. It all went ok until my sensei and several others was broke off from the main body. Thus, breaking off any link to the former school...Including the opportunity to participate in any competition and/or seminars. While have a great split upon the affected students to whether to stay or leave.

Reason given by my sensei is unfairness of attention and bias of opportunity to the "unnoticed" qualified student by the Shihan to the selected few. Then, plus and minus several other issues which resulted expulsion of the "disobedient" Senseis (including my Sensei)

Though my Sensei and others eventually decided to start their own Dojo and style and affiliated to another major Ryu (in order to have qualified students able to join competition like WUKO, AUKO and for other learning experiences) after reconsile attempts by the Soke failed and approval for affiliation.

But the point here is not to dicuss who was right who was wrong or what they are struggle for.

It is how this kind thing affect the low rank students.

Most of those affected are school students. With sudden announcement that the Sensei who are teaching you are purged, any student will just be confused. Felt betrayed and many other mixed feelings.

Choice:
Give up your Sensei, and study with other Sensei of the original style that you had never trained with before?
Follow your Sensei and affiliate with other style instead?
Or just stop pracitcing it because the politics just kill your interest?

Regardless of which choice, the student will sure lose their training pals.

Then, if you decided to learn something else, this bad experince will make you think twice on finding which "problem free" dojo to learn Martial art (normally those popular and with many styles to pick from) again.
Furthermore, that it is fair and no bias.

And when those stopped students grow up, they,(now, as general public) will probably bear a negative mind on all martial art.

Just my sadden thought.

DudSan 05-31-2006 01:56 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
I know of at least three independent Dojos in my country. I knew one of these guys, and he was a good Aikidoist.

The most interesting 'independent Dojo' is a style that they call 'Satori AikiBudo'. They use the same principles and basic techniques of Aikido, with other particular techniques they have, focused so much in real Self Defense as in spiritual aspects. They give the Belt after a person has been 'enlightened', that means when he understand the essence of the art and start being totally fluid. I find it a good stuff, though it hangs on the person, of course.

All the others are just streetfighting based on Steven Seagal movies. Not Aikido at all.

My opinion is that, if someone wants to learn something he/she likes and the independent Dojo teaches something that they like, go ahead then. But when dealing with the change of technical programms I I still respect tradition enough as to believe that a tradictional teaching is safer than the new inspirations. Because there is nothing new under the sun.

Respectful regards
DudSan

James Kelly 05-31-2006 03:28 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

Douglas Calvo wrote:
...They give the Belt after a person has been 'enlightened'

now that's funny...

jimbaker 05-31-2006 05:37 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
There are also teachers who are independent because they were asked to leave an organization. They may or may not tell their students this.

I too have noticed some indepentent teachers shopping around for an organization through which they could get recognized ranking. The teacher gets certificates and the organizations add another dues paying dojo. It's been my experience that neither thinks highly of the other.

DevinHammer 05-31-2006 07:59 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
I used to go to an "independent" dojo. They did pay dues to the Aikikai in Japan, but that was only because they needed to be able to give you Shodan certification. For example, my old instructor never to anyone about the aikikai blue books, nor would he let you have it. That was because they do not associate with any other dojos or instrctors and do not want their students training anywhere else. They teach that the Iwama style is the only true style and that anything else you learn is garbage. The one thing they do say that I agree with, is that they got tired of all of the politics. When I left, I asked for my blue book. My shodan ranking was marked by the Late Toyoda Shihan with whom the had links to. Probably for this reason. But they didn't want us to do any techniques that Toyoda Shihan showed us and often ridiculed his style behind his back. What hipocrites! Anyway, independent means that they want to stay to themselves and not have anyone tell them what to do, how to test, how to grade, what techniques or weapons are required for this or that. That's cool. If you know your stuff, what difference does a piece of paper make anyway? It's only for show. They may not recognize your rank, but they will recognize your technique!


I disagree. I have heard of and experienced plenty of "affiliated" dojo that don't want their members training anywhere else, or claim that there's "one correct way" to do techniques. It has much more to do with the sensei's attitude than any affiliation or lack thereof. I come from a very well known and respected dojo that is no longer affiliated with any organization, and we are encouraged to "train around". We're also constantly bringing in guest instructors, from a variety of affiliations, and exploring different ways of doing things. As I understand it, our past affiliations were discontinued due to frustration with the politics.

alex padilla 05-31-2006 08:37 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
i think politics and financial matters causes independent dojos. besides the attitude of the sensei or students who think they are senseis.

Talon 05-31-2006 08:43 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
I train at a dojo that is not affiliated with anyone. When I asked the sensei why. He said he was not into the politics and paying dues to some outside organization. He said that if we affiliated, our fees would go up and he doesnt see any point in charging his students any more money for dues. He says his philosophy is hard training not papers and affiliations. It will not make you better on the mat according to him. I'd preffer to be affiliated but I liked his dojo the best when I was shopping around (5+ years ago). How expensive are affiliations anyway to a dojo owner?

aikidoc 05-31-2006 10:01 PM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
There are some issues of concern when becoming "independent". As an example, I have seen organizations claim "aikikai style" when their closest relationship to the aikikai was one of the lineage instructors had been under Koichi Tohei-3 levels removed. How can one maintain a connection to the aikikai style, if there is such a thing, when you never train actively under the aikikai for 30 years? I originally trained concurrently under an aikikai and an "independent" organization. The independent group was considerably removed from the aikikai both in terminology and style, yet members still claim aikikai style. Is this intellectual dishonesty or do they really believe that is what they are teaching? Or, is it because it is popular to make that connection to the aikikai?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against independent organizations. As long as the "independent" makes it clear where their lineage lies and maintain intellectual honesty in their claims. IMHO It will be the student's responsibility to determine if the quality of aikido suffers without connection to a formal organization with higher level instructors.

Budd 06-01-2006 07:39 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
I think it again depends on what you're looking for. I've heard so many times, "How high a rank can I get at your dojo?" or "What does it take to get a black belt?" from people that joined our independent dojo -- then didn't make it through a month of classes.

For the seasoned student, it's much easier to look at where the instructors (independent or otherwise) got their stuff, feel them on the mat (though it helps if you train at a place where the instructor trains with you, rather than walking around saying "do this, do that") and make an informed decision than it is for the brand new martial arts student that:

1) Doesn't understand the pros and cons that exist vis a vis belonging to an organization and being independent.

2) Doesn't have a basis for comparing the practitioners' skills (a compliant demo where people are flying through the air might seem more impressive than a less compliant demo where folks are dropped quickly and with minimal force).

3) Doesn't understand the difference between training aikido as martial art that you can fight with versus aikido training as learning to harmonize with the spirit of the universe (insert your own definitions of these things as it seems to be a case by case interpretation).

I train at an independent dojo and very much like it that way -- but I think that has more to do with my instructors, training partners and my perception of the quality of training than it does regarding the dojo's status as independent or otherwise (though, given my somewhat 'maverick' nature, I'm betting that it still IS a factor).

YMMV.

jimbaker 06-01-2006 07:40 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
For the USAF, the annual dojo fee is $65 for dojos with fewer than, I think, 50 students. The ranked students pay $30 per year for their membership. Test fees up to Shodan are $30 per test.

We're not required to buy manuals, patches, dogis, hakama, weapons, belts or anything else for that matter, from the USAF.

Since the USAF does not issue Yudansha ranks, but rather gets them directly from Hombu dojo, fees for Yudansha tests go directly to Japan.

I'm not sure what people think is "too expensive", but for me, 65 bucks a year seems reasonable.

aikidoc 06-01-2006 08:47 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
The issue of rank can be complicated with it being very political in some organizations to costly in others. I don't want to get on the rank quality issue for each level. However, suffice it to say that the one weakness independent organizations can fall into is stagnation. How does the top of the organization, depending on size, continue to improve it's aikido. I have seen organizations where the yudansha keep advancing based on time in grade but don't attend seminars or do anything visible to advance their own skills. This stagnation leads to futher deterioation down the road of the quality of successive generations. At least with a large or connected organization, the top ranks are generally of significant rank skill and dedication that they continue to evolve their aikido. However, when you have an organization that splits off for whatever reason with lower ranked yudansha that self promotes the quality issue becomes visible. I know of one independent that tests only to nidan and then rank is time in grade from there forward. If you are actively training, do the time in grade, you get the rank. You can end up with 5th or 6th dans who have never tested beyond nidan and have no other requirements than time in grade. Does it or could it mean the 5th or 6th dan has nidan level skills? Absolutely unless someone is guiding this person's training. This is one of the biggest challenges in my mind that independents face-maintaining quality.

Budd 06-01-2006 09:46 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
I think it again depends on the dojo and the organization. What are the instructor's verifiable qualifications? Does the instructor have a Teacher? How often does the instructor visit/train with his or her teacher? What are the verifiable qualifications of his/her Teacher? When the instructor teaches, does he or she train with the students or just demo? What are the standards for rank? Is the aikido trained as budo, moving zen, aerobics, etc.? Are you paying testing/association fees? If yes, where does this money go?

As to the issue of stagnation, I think that's always going to be an issue when the head Teacher is of middling skill -- which I'm sure plenty can point to inside and outside of the main organizations -- AND has an investment in keeping the students dependent on him or her for advancement/knowledge/etc. (doesn't have to be financial, can be purely for ego). Which I think comes back to this: Is your teacher always trying to improve? Are they afraid to fail along the way? Assuming you do your work on and off the mat, are they trying to bring you up to their level (and hope that you someday surpass them)?

vsm712 06-09-2006 12:30 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
this thread is very timely...our dojo plans to be independent since we don't want to join any political war and that we simply want to practice in harmony but we hope to still be recognized and maintain our affiliation with hombu dojo....since being independent means we don't have any local affiliations anymore, will it not be possible for us to be recognized? if there's a way, i would appreciate exactly the steps as to how we can achieve this...i've read the regulations and just basing it on there, would be difficult to achieve this that's why im asking if anyone was able to achieve this and what exactr course you have taken. thanks in advance ...

George S. Ledyard 06-09-2006 12:44 AM

Re: What exactly is an independent dojo?
 
Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote:
That was because they do not associate with any other dojos or instrctors and do not want their students training anywhere else. They teach that the Iwama style is the only true style and that anything else you learn is garbage.

The one thing they do say that I agree with, is that they got tired of all of the politics.

I like that very much... they don't associate with anyone else, think everybody else's Aikido is garbage, think that their style is the only REAL style, and they got tired of the politics? It's precisely this type of attitude which makes me tired, I must say.


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