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-   -   budo vs. bushido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4217)

Jesse Lee 08-04-2003 10:43 AM

budo vs. bushido
 
What is the difference between "budo" and "bushido"?

Please limit your response to 10,000 words or less :D

Don_Modesto 08-04-2003 02:15 PM

Re: budo vs. bushido
 
Quote:

Jesse Lee wrote:
What is the difference between "budo" and "bushido"?

Before circa 1930--nothing.

For a very enlightening read--revisionist even--see Bodiford on Religion and Spirituality in the Martial Arts: Japan in the Martial Arts of the World Encyclopedia. (Thank you PAG for the reference.)

(Hint: "DO", after the Russo/Jpn War, meant fealty to the emperor and all his insidious designs, not "Zen-influenced Ways"...)

Jesse Lee 08-04-2003 02:21 PM

Thanks Don, I will be on the lookout for that. Just being clear, you are citing the World Encyclopedia?

So what is the difference, after circa 1930? I am going to guess and say that bushido incorporates budo but adds the idea of absolute fealty / loyalty to one's retainer / master.

Dave Miller 08-04-2003 03:50 PM

My understanding has always been that "budo" was the code of the warrior whereas "bushido" was simply the reigning social ethic, much like European chivalry. However, I just might be wrong. It happened once before. ;)

David Yap 08-05-2003 03:43 AM

Hi Jesse & others,

May I recommend you to the following website:

http://budo.karate.uk.com/index.html

In this site, Kazuya Mitani sensei attempts to explain to the Western practisioners of MA (or karateka) the meaning/origin of Budo, Bushido and Oriental philosophy in not more than 10,000 words:)

Regards

David Y

Eric Joyce 08-05-2003 09:44 AM

Jesse,

This is what I found on the Aikido Journal website encyclopedia:

Budo:

Martial art; martial way. Although usually translated as "martial art," a more precise rendering is "martial way," implying a martial discipline for character or spiritual development practiced as a lifelong pursuit.

Bushido:

The feudal-military Japanese code of behavior; the way of the warrior or samurai.

Jesse Lee 08-05-2003 10:39 AM

very cool, thanks for all the excellent posts!

Don_Modesto 08-05-2003 01:37 PM

Quote:

Jesse Lee wrote:
Thanks Don, I will be on the lookout for that. Just being clear, you are citing the World Encyclopedia?

DJM: No:

_____________________________

Title Martial arts of the world : an encyclopedia / edited by Thomas A. Green.

Call Number R 796.803 MA

Publisher Santa Barbara, Calif. : ABC-CLIO, c2001.

Paging 2 v. (xix, 894 p.) : ill., maps ; 27 cm.

Contents v. 1. A-Q -- v. 2. R-Z.

_____________________________

So what is the difference, after circa 1930?

Were I you, I'd read Bodiford myself. Failing that, if I recall aright...

Actually, the 30's date is probably off a bit, sorry. In the teens, 20's and 30's, Jp was in the clutches of fascists who oriented education to inculcating sentiments of suicidal allegiance to the emperor. The Jpn recognized their technological incapacities and intended to take up the slack with "SEISHIN", fighting spirit (remember the women in Okinawa fighting flame throwers with sharpened bamboo poles? One modernizer who tried to build up Jpn armaments was accused of treason).

To this end, the famous Hagakure ("The way of the samurai lies in death"), written by a romantic gasbag born during the peace of Tokugawa who never had to draw his sword in anger, was widely circulated to inspire fanaticism; martial arts were taken over by an organization called the Butokukai founded for this purpose to introduce youth to fighting and sacrifice; Momotaro, a children's story about a superhuman toddler who drives off the long-nosed barbarians, becomes canonical.

Samurai had become unwelcome in Meiji (1868-1911). They were conservative dinosaurs in a time of cataclysmic change. Nitobe Inazo, a Quaker (I think) wrote Bushido, in English, to reconcile Jpn values with Christianity. After the Jpn womped the Russians, however, an event inspiring peoples throughout the colonial world where whites had theretofore been regarded as undefeatable, values of the samurai were reconsidered. "Bushido" (Nitobe had thought he invented the term which had alternately been referred to as "budo", "samuraido", etc.) was appropriated by the politicos and "DO" took on the meaning of emperor worship (Here, Bodiford explicitly corrects Draeger who denies this history).

A police superintendent wrote that "bujutsu" ought to be written "budo" and this soon occured. In the 30's, the term "dojo" became widespread; borrowed from Buddhism, it lent a patina of spirituality to the rough business of preparing an army of suicidal maniacs. Constabularies regularly policed dojo to enforce the requirement that they have KAMIDANA at the front of their practice area, and bowed to it before and after class.

Offers new perspective to the standard "harmony of the universe, self-perfection thing", doesn't it? Kano, founder of judo, must have rolled over in his grave and it's said that Ueshiba Morihei retired to the countryside to avoid being part of the prostitution of his art thus.

Evidently, after the war, many martial artists acquiesed to the association of their arts with Zen through what had become "The Ways", not because it was actually so, but in order to rehabilitate their practice with the appearance of social utility. YMMV.

Jesse Lee 08-05-2003 05:23 PM

Wow, great response from the learned Don Modesto! Thanks, totally interesting....

Thalib 08-06-2003 10:31 AM

The misconception of "budo"?
 
I was going to start a new thread on this, but I see someone already started.

I'm neither a linguist nor an anthropologist nor a historian, but I really need to ask the following question, what does "budou" (") really mean? I look up the dictionary by Taishukan and, as usual, it translates to "martial (military) arts". Some disagree and say it should translate to "martial way" because of the "dou" (") part which translates to "the way", but that is not the point that I want to discuss here.

What does the word "martial" actually mean? I look it up again in a dictionary (Merriam-Webster) and it does mean anything that has to do with the military. I look up the word military, and it actually points to the Japanese word "gun" (R). So I look up for the word martial, and it points to the Japanese word "kaigen" (), but even this word actually means "be on guard".

So does "budou", or it's earlier counterpart "bujutsu" (p), translates to the art of war? Well the word for war is actually "tatakai" (), sounds like the word for fighting (") but different kanji. The word "jutsu" (p) on the other hand does translate to art or technique. I couldn't see "budo" translated as the "art of war" or the "way of war".

Does "budou" translates to the art (way) of self-defense? The word for self-defense in Japanese is actually "ji-ei" (q). Perhaps this is actually the closest one I could think of that closely resembles my perception of "budo".

The kanji "bu" () consists of two parts:
1. The top part, according to the dictionary, is actually either "hoko" () that translates to halberd or "igurumi" (T) that translates to arrow with weighted cord. Basically, it means weapon (arms).
2. The bottom part is "tome" (~) which could translate to stop.
Let's split them up, top to bottom, they'll read "hoko-dome" (~). Putting it this way, the word could mean "stop arms" or "to stop arms". Could "bu" be translated this way?

In conclusion, "budou", in my opinion, translates to "the martial way" only because it's use during war times. It has become a jargon that identifies itself to "martial arts" or "the art of self-defense". Therefore "budou", from my point of view, translates to "the way of stopping arms" which could then be taken as "the way of non-aggression" or "the way of peace".

What do you think?

Don_Modesto 08-06-2003 12:25 PM

Re: The misconception of "budo"?
 
Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
The kanji "bu" () consists of two parts:

1. The top part, according to the dictionary, is actually either "hoko" () that translates to halberd or "igurumi" (T) that translates to arrow with weighted cord. Basically, it means weapon (arms).

2. The bottom part is "tome" (~) which could translate to stop.

Let's split them up, top to bottom, they'll read "hoko-dome" (~). Putting it this way, the word could mean "stop arms" or "to stop arms". Could "bu" be translated this way?

In conclusion, "budou", in my opinion, translates to "the martial way" only because it's use during war times. It has become a jargon that identifies itself to "martial arts" or "the art of self-defense". Therefore "budou", from my point of view, translates to "the way of stopping arms" which could then be taken as "the way of non-aggression" or "the way of peace".

What do you think?

Peter Goldsbury has written at length on this. Indeed, some of the dictionaries he checked explicitly referred to this interpretation ("stop arms" or "to stop arms") as wrong--something about mnemonics confusing the issue or change in meaning of the kanji over time. I'm searching the boards now to find the URL; I don't have it with me, it's on my handheld, but I'll try to remember to post it tomorrow as adamantly denies this meaning.

Thanks for the erudite post.

Chris Li 08-06-2003 03:33 PM

Re: The misconception of "budo"?
 
Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
In conclusion, "budou", in my opinion, translates to "the martial way" only because it's use during war times. It has become a jargon that identifies itself to "martial arts" or "the art of self-defense". Therefore "budou", from my point of view, translates to "the way of stopping arms" which could then be taken as "the way of non-aggression" or "the way of peace".

What do you think?

According to "Kanji-gen" (a Japanese Kanji reference), that translation is based on an erractic notation in a Chinese text (Shunju Sashi-den). The character on the bottom which means "stop" in current usage is from the character for foot, and with the character for halberd the kanji "bu" originally meant "to advance with a spear (halberd)", which is a pretty good description of "war", if you ask me.

Best,

Chris

sanosuke 08-06-2003 08:07 PM

the martial arts used in warfare is usually refered as 'bujutsu'. 'budo' itself emphasizing more on the philosophical side without abandoning the physical side of an art. In my opinion, budo and bushido is like car and petrol, they complement each other. Bushido without budo is just a mere philosophy, budo without bushido will just be an exercise.

Thalib 08-06-2003 08:40 PM

Re: Re: The misconception of "budo"?
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Thanks for the erudite post.

Did you know that I had to look that word up?

Erudite: possessing or displaying erudition

Erudition: extensive knowledge acquired chiefly from books

Now I understand... Anyway, dictionaries aside, I was hoping that Goldsbury-san will actually come down and critiscize my post.

To Chris Li:

Actually you're right, the bottom part could also be the kanji for foot, "ashi" (), with the "head" () cut off.

Maybe the answer to this is not black nor white. Maybe it's an esoteric thing. Most will translate it to the "Martial Way" and the spiritualist could translate it to "The Way of Peace".

But, I'll wait for Goldsbury-han.

sanosuke 08-07-2003 12:53 AM

Kamal, I lost already, maybe you could explain to me during class.

Thalib 08-07-2003 08:17 AM

Visuals
 
Just to clear up what Li-san and I meant, I have posted the following images:

Budo as "the way of non aggression" (my post):



Budo as "the martial way" (Li-san's post - according to the kanji-gen):


Chuck Clark 08-07-2003 10:02 AM

As with all things in Japan, there is no definitive black or white answer...it is grey.

This shade of grey was given to me by Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, menkyo kaiden of the Shinto Muso Ryu.

The difference between budo and bujutsu is not one of technique so much. It is jutsu when defending life or country, etc. and it is Do (michi) the rest of the time. What changes is your intent and application.

Bushido is another subject. As others have said, there is a lot of misunderstanding about this term caused by a lot of popular myth taken for truth.

Thanks for an interesting discussion on this subject.

Cheers,

Don_Modesto 08-07-2003 01:57 PM

Re: Re: The misconception of "budo"?
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Peter Goldsbury has written at length on this....I'm searching the boards now to find the URL; I don't have it with me, it's on my handheld, but I'll try to remember to post it tomorrow as adamantly denies this meaning.

I think this is it:

http://www.aikiweb.com/language/goldsbury1.html

but I can't be sure because it won't load on the machine I'm using which has no KANJI support (which usually doesn't stop the rest from loading...?) Maybe Jun could help out here, or someone else with better luck with the link. It's a lengthy selection in which Peter discusses several dictionaries' versions of the meaning of budo.

Thanks.

akiy 08-07-2003 02:12 PM

Hi Don,

You can use Shoudouka online which will show the kanji characters as imbedded .gif images.

Try:

http://lfw.org/shodouka/http://www.a...oldsbury1.html

-- Jun

Chris Li 08-07-2003 02:25 PM

Re: Re: Re: The misconception of "budo"?
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
I think this is it:

http://www.aikiweb.com/language/goldsbury1.html

but I can't be sure because it won't load on the machine I'm using which has no KANJI support (which usually doesn't stop the rest from loading...?) Maybe Jun could help out here, or someone else with better luck with the link. It's a lengthy selection in which Peter discusses several dictionaries' versions of the meaning of budo.

Thanks.

That's the one. Basically he says what I said, but in much more detail and with a lot more eloquence :).

Best,

Chris

Thalib 08-07-2003 06:35 PM

(after reading Goldsbury-han's post)

Quote:

Peter Goldsbury wrote:
(i) What was the original meaning of the word in Japanese? Presumably it was the same as the Chinese meaning (the measurement of a man's footstep). There are many Japanese kun readings of the word: 'ato', 'shinogu', 'take' (as in 'takemusu'), being just a few.
(ii) What was the Chinese-derived meaning of the word? Again, the Chinese reading is wu and this was taken over as BU or MU. The meaning must have evolved, as with any other word in a living language.
(iii) What is the meaning in present-day Japanese? Here the 'peaceful' meaning, described above, might be quite plausible as a recent possibility, since the Tokugawa period ushered in an end to the wars that had plagued Japan for many centuries earlier. The samurai, or bushi (m: the first character is the same) had little to do but administer estates, write letters and practise the martial arts. The only problem is that it does not appear in the dictionary and it would be a linguistic mistake to isolate this later hypothetical meaning as the "real" meaning of the word.

I see, according to his observation that the the "bu" kanji has evolved from "advancing with halberd" to "stopping the halberd". I believe it's the same way how the country has evolved from war-time to peace-time.

The answer is not black nor white, not right or wrong. It's just how one perceives it.

Chris Li 08-07-2003 06:47 PM

Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
(after reading Goldsbury-han's post)

I see, according to his observation that the the "bu" kanji has evolved from "advancing with halberd" to "stopping the halberd". I believe it's the same way how the country has evolved from war-time to peace-time.

I think it's less that it's evolved than that "stopping the halberd" has become a popular metaphor for purposes of memorization and/or illustration of certain philosophical points. The literal meaning and derivation of the Kanji remains the same. As he mentions, the standard Japanese dictionaries list a number of definitions for the character "bu", but none of them are "stopping the halberd". In fact he says directly "The only problem is that it does not appear in the dictionary and it would be a linguistic mistake to isolate this later hypothetical meaning as the "real" meaning of the word.".

In any case, the kanji "bu" is most commonly used by Japanese without any thought whatsoever into the deeper possible meanings - any more than most English speakers ponder over "martial" and the possible implied worship of Roman gods :).

Best,

Chris

Thalib 08-07-2003 07:00 PM

Basically all of the kanji has the literal and philosphical meaning. Have you guys seen "Hero" (starring Jet Li)? In that movie, there was like 13 ways, or was it more, to write the kanji for "sword" and each has different meaning.

Anyway the last (secret) way of writing the kanji for "sword" involves something like the unification between the man and his weapon, therefore no longer needing the sword, no longer needing aggression.

I forgot what the explanation was exactly. I like this movie, "Hero", because of its philosophical values. It also has kung-fu action, romance, and a bit of comedy in it. I love the ending. It's so... dramatic.

Chris Li 08-07-2003 07:21 PM

Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Basically all of the kanji has the literal and philosphical meaning. Have you guys seen "Hero" (starring Jet Li)? In that movie, there was like 13 ways, or was it more, to write the kanji for "sword" and each has different meaning.

I can't remember offhand how many kanji for "sword" there are in Japanese, but many of them do have slightly different literal meanings - not surprising since different kanji means that they are actually different words!

The reason why I resist the "bu means stopping the halberd" school of thought is that you run into a lot of non-Japanese speakers who think that "stopping the halberd" is actually the literal linguistic meaning of the character, when that interpretation is, at best, a menomic or metaphorical device.

Best,

Chris


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