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ewodaj 07-12-2003 09:23 PM

aikido and competition
 
has anyone ever heard of joe lewis? a lot of martial artists and people in general voted him as the greatest karate champion ever...anyways, I was listening to a radio show (its a martial arts radio show based out of vancouver canada I believe) and joe lewis was on there and he was saying steven seagal and jean claude van damme arent "real" martial artists because they never competed in competition to prove their skills...I thought that was an ignorant statement on his behalf because he has an ego problem as well...he was saying he would beat the gracies and all this other mumbo jumbo...first of all, if he did his research he would have known that in aikido there arent any competitions, so that would mean that seagal wouldnt compete in competition know matter how good he is...I was reading a few articles and they were saying some of the techniques that aikido teaches you can be very dangerous...check out this article and give me your input on this article and what joe lewis has said about steven seagal...its interesting to know that joe lewis has trained with bruce lee too...

A general perception of Aikido is that there are no competitions. This is generally true, although there as some styles which have limited competitions. Tomiki style, for example, has matches using tanken (short swords) with dull blades, and specific rules for scoring points.

Also, some trainees like to test each other to see if they can make their techniques work against other trainees who are resisting with full power, and vice-versa. This is constructive in moderation since any weaknesses and defects in technique become immediately clear, as long as the primary goals of perfecting technique and developing cordial relationships with other trainees is maintained in the forefront.

However, these diversions are not comparable to the type of competitions found in karate and other martial arts in which a contestant is free to use a variety of techniques in a relatively spontaneous manner for the express purpose of winning a victory over another contestant.

An official explanation for the lack of competition in Aikido is that this particular martial art is based on harmony, and competition is the antithesis of its primary objective. Although this is certainly valid, a brief review of the derivation of Aikido from older martial art forms will show that there is also a very practical reason for discouraging Aikido trainees from going at each other flat out.

An interesting little book entitled "Judo, Appendix Aikido", by Kenji Tomiki (the founder of the above referenced Tomiki style of Aikido), which was published in 1956, includes a chart showing classes of "Judo" technique. These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques".

The Aiki techniques are described as a "system of techniques in the applying of which it is considered most ideal not to be seized by the opponent", and include "Kansetsu techniques" (bending or twisting joints) and "Atemi techniques" (attacking vital points).

The Randori techniques are described as a "system of techniques to be applied by seizing hold of each other", and include grappling techniques and throwing techniques.

Although Tomiki considers Judo to include both classes of techniques, he writes that "practice in these techniques of attacking the vital points and bending or twisting the joints is not to be carried on by means of contests as in the case of the randori techniques, for from the nature of those techniques it is attended with danger".

Different martial arts focus on different aspects of applying and controlling force (karate emphasizes atemi, judo emphasizes grappling and throwing, etc.). In general, however, if a martial art is to provide a forum for competition which minimizes the possibility of death and serious injury, the forum must necessarily include rules which prohibit the more dangerous techniques. This was implemented in the case of judo by allowing only randori techniques in contests.

Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement.

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry.

Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed, the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious. The answer to the question of why Aikido is not identified with a sport or a contest is simple".

No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented.

All people are different, and those who are interested in martial arts should seek out a style which best suits their personality and goals. If one martial art does not provide everything they are looking for, they may consider training in several.

A good strategy is to select the most apparently suitable martial art as primary, and train long enough to develop a high level of proficiency. Then, seek out other martial arts and incorporate their teachings into the primary system. This is, in fact, an excellent way to become a true and well rounded martial artist.

Charles Hill 07-12-2003 09:30 PM

Louis,

May I be so bold as to strongly suggest putting down the books and heading to a martial arts school and trying it out?

Charles

ewodaj 07-12-2003 09:33 PM

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Louis,

May I be so bold as to strongly suggest putting down the books and heading to a martial arts school and trying it out?

Charles

I went to an aikido dojo today and I signed up for classes charles...:D

MikeE 07-13-2003 03:16 AM

Louis,

I have been in the martial arts for 20 years. I like to think that as your progress in whatever art you choose to follow that you will develop a level that allows your character to shine through.

I have noticed that people who have spent many years studying budo can and will exhibit extraordinary technique and control in the same instance. Whether or not a technique kills, maims, or controls is a matter of choice to a person at this level.

I would like to believe that this is pervasive through most of the martial arts.

My training in other arts, IMHO, has helped me provide a more realistic environment for my students when stepping outside traditional kata.

deepsoup 07-13-2003 03:39 AM

Louis,

Who on Earth do you think you're talking to? You're not well informed, you have misunderstood much, and you are delivering a lecture on a forum frequented by people who are very well informed indeed.

On the subject of competition, why not check out the search facility, you'll find there have been several lengthy threads in the past.

Congratulations on finding a dojo; now that you're beginning to do some training, why not post on things you actually experience. (If you'll read the forums a bit, you'll find there are quite a few beginners who make valuable contributions to the forum.)

Sean

x

Mel Barker 07-13-2003 09:04 AM

Louis, it appears that you are quoting some source in your post. Would you be so kind as to let us know the source of the quote in your post.

Thanks,

Mel Barker

ewodaj 07-13-2003 12:03 PM

Quote:

Sean Orchard (deepsoup) wrote:
Louis,

Who on Earth do you think you're talking to? You're not well informed, you have misunderstood much, and you are delivering a lecture on a forum frequented by people who are very well informed indeed.

On the subject of competition, why not check out the search facility, you'll find there have been several lengthy threads in the past.

Congratulations on finding a dojo; now that you're beginning to do some training, why not post on things you actually experience. (If you'll read the forums a bit, you'll find there are quite a few beginners who make valuable contributions to the forum.)

Sean

x

I dont like the manner you are talking in boy...aikido teaches you to respect others...Im not misunderstood because ive done length research on it...I even asked the instructor at the dojo arent there competitions in aikido and he said no and he explained it to me...have respect for your peeps boy...

Hanna B 07-13-2003 12:08 PM

Quote:

Louis Amberg (ewodaj) wrote:
aikido teaches you to respect others...

A lot of people say that. I have yet so see it proven.

Ian Moore 07-13-2003 01:11 PM

Seems to me that life in general teaches you to respect others. Whether you learn the lesson and pass the test is another matter...

ewodaj 07-13-2003 01:32 PM

Quote:

Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
A lot of people say that. I have yet so see it proven.

you respect the people in your dojo correct? there you go, point proven...its something you already have learned, so no instructor needs to tell you that...its basically like this, you already know do this before you get into aikido because that is one of thw many things aikido teaches you, but you should already have known that...its basically called manners...:eek:

Martin L 07-13-2003 05:37 PM

Oh dear, all this talk of manners, and look how you reply to Sean.

Unfortunately for you he is correct. What exactly was the aim of your post? Preaching to aikidoka about what they already do? Research is fine, but make your own opinion.

This is a tired argument, which is amusing because it isn't really an argument at all. Aikido is an umbrella. Shodokan Aikido has competition. Others do not. Therefore, there ia competition in Aikido. If you have no interest in competition, don't choose Shodokan, but accept the fact that it exists. If you don't, then it really makes no difference to anyone anyway. We'll all keep training happily in whatever style we have chosen.

PeterR 07-13-2003 06:59 PM

Quote:

These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques".
The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.

ewodaj 07-13-2003 11:08 PM

Quote:

Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.

you dont make any sense huh? what does me not stepping on the mat have anything to do with seans politeness? aikido teaches you to respect others and I feel his statements were smartass...respecting others and their opinions and what aikido is about...one of the mant aspects of it anyways...

deepsoup 07-14-2003 05:38 AM

Quote:

Louis Amberg wrote:
you dont make any sense huh? what does me not stepping on the mat have anything to do with seans politeness? aikido teaches you to respect others and I feel his statements were smartass...respecting others and their opinions and what aikido is about...one of the mant aspects of it anyways...

Louis,

The rule on these forums is to treat each other with respect, but our opinions are not afforded the same protection.

I considered your opinion to be a bit half-baked, and I was excercising my right to say so. (In fact, it didn't even seem to be an opinion as such, just so much regurgitated second-hand information.) That is what debate and discussion is. But in doing so I was endevouring to treat you personally with respect.

I guess you dont understand the distinction, since in reply you went straight for immature (and rather feeble) personal abuse. Ah well.

Not everybody's opinion on what "aikido is about" carries equal weight. For your information, reading a few websites and maybe a book or two, and having a single conversation with your local instructor does not constitute "length research" [sic].

There are people posting here (I'm not one of them, btw.) who've been training hard for decades, now that is lengthy research.

There are also complete beginners and even 'not-yet' beginners like yourself making valid and interesting contributions. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from reading their posts and contrasting them to your own.

Sean

x

L. Camejo 07-14-2003 09:02 AM

I think this thread is a great example of how one can lose their centre (and manners... and technique) in the face of resistance. Parallels mat training in many respects :)

Maybe Louis has helped prove that there IS some good to competition/resistance training in Aikido, as we learn more and more how to effectively execute and adapt our technique while under the pressure of resistance, without letting it all fall apart. I think some Shodokan training is exactly what Louis needs :)

Anyone can respect another when they are being nice and cooperative, it's bringing the harmony out of a state of conflict and resistance that shows us whether we really understand what we mean when we say Aikido is about harmony.

Just a few rambling thoughts. Will return to my state of lurkdom now :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

PhilJ 07-14-2003 10:19 AM

Thanks Larry, that's a very good point to remember.

*Phil

Michael Neal 07-14-2003 10:29 AM

LOL

Cyrijl 07-14-2003 02:32 PM

Quote:

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry. No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How old are you louis?

Mel Barker 07-14-2003 04:31 PM

Quote:

Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Just a few rambling thoughts. Will return to my state of lurkdom now :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

Well said Larry. Please ramble more and lurk less.

Mel Barker

Devin McDowell 05-27-2004 05:14 AM

Re: aikido and competition
 
Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How old are you louis?

What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.

PeterR 05-27-2004 05:36 AM

Re: aikido and competition
 
Quote:

Devin McDowell wrote:
What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.

Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago.

In any case - it wasn't just the quote which brought forth the mirth.

Chris Birke 05-27-2004 10:26 AM

Re: aikido and competition
 
What WOULD an NHB Aikido romp look like? Aikido initiates no offensive techniques!

So, let's start the match with both contestants gripping the gi. I'd imagine there'd be an initial scuffle to get a lock, maybe a throw attempt (unsuccessful) countered with some close striking, and then they would undoubtedly separate. This brings us back to the initial problem.

Any match would have to be Aikido versus, or Aikido would have to be augmented with some assault techniques.

//

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there. There is a large difference between what works on the average joe, and what works against a skilled opponent. It is much easier to defend many techniques than execute them.

I knew someone who was a big proponent of stomping out the knee. They claimed it could quickly end any fight.

In NHB, there is no rule preventing you from going out there, stomping some knee, and collecting your paycheck. The reason you don't see it is that it's too easy to defend. Stomping the knee relies on the ignorant posture of an opponent - if they know how to stand correctly with respect to their opponent (or even just happen to be standing that way) it won't work.

That said, I do know of incidents where people have stomped knees "on the street." Most people you meet won't be trained.

//

I was thinking, what are the features of barred holds (strikes ignored) that make them too dangerous?

Maybe if we examine commonality among them there can be some insight.

//

Are you training to fight in a cage, training for self defense off the mat, or training for spiritual enlightenment? These goals are not mutually exclusive, however most would argue you can very legitimately abandon some in the pursuit of others.

You don't need to fight in a cage to be good on the streets. You don't need to train self defense to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Or do you?

//

"aikido teaches you to respect others..." (this is a "20 year" technique)

//

Will I ever get tired of threads debating competition? No... I don't think so...

happysod 05-27-2004 10:42 AM

Re: aikido and competition
 
Quote:

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there
so, as a matter of interest, how is Jason doing with his aikido in MMA?

Chris Birke 05-27-2004 11:07 AM

Re: aikido and competition
 
After checking my favorite website it looks as though he hasn't fought recently.

I have the suspicion that if whatever he does works, it will look different what's in from the average dojo, and people will be inclined to say "it isn't Aikido."

(not that I agree or disagree with that)

PeterR 05-27-2004 07:34 PM

Re: aikido and competition
 
Quote:

Chris Birke wrote:
What WOULD an NHB Aikido romp look like? Aikido initiates no offensive techniques!

Of course it does.
Quote:

So, let's start the match with both contestants gripping the gi. I'd imagine there'd be an initial scuffle to get a lock, maybe a throw attempt (unsuccessful) countered with some close striking, and then they would undoubtedly separate. This brings us back to the initial problem.
Well then it would be Judo. Aikido is really done before the initial grip. NHB of course doesn't involve only one form of fighting.
Quote:

Any match would have to be Aikido versus, or Aikido would have to be augmented with some assault techniques.
Well that is why in Shodokan randori we use the tanto. Of course we also have toshu randori (both unarmed) that can work pretty good.
Quote:

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there. There is a large difference between what works on the average joe, and what works against a skilled opponent. It is much easier to defend many techniques than execute them.
The big lesson learnt in Shodokan randori. These beutiful techniques are damm difficult to pull off against someone who knows as much as you do.


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