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Kelly Allen 06-05-2003 01:05 AM

Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
I came across this interview with Katsuyuki Kondo on a Diato Ryu Aikai Jujustu web site. In the interview he refers to some of the differences between DRAJ and Aikido. Here is an exerpt.

What are the main differences between Daito-ryu and aikido?

I don't think there is any difference. In Daito-ryu, too, practice begins and ends with courtesy (rei). And its final goal is the spirit of love and harmony.

How about technically?

I do not think that there is much difference technically, either. However, we have what we call ikkajo, which consists of thirty different techniques, ten of which are seated, five hanza handachi, ten standing techniques (tachiai) and five rear-attack techniques (ushirodori). Each of these thirty techniques has its own name. In Daito-ryu, the first technique you learn is called ippondori, a difficult technique where you receive, barehanded, the frontal attack of your opponent.

In the traditional martial arts, a secret technique is usually taught at the very beginning. In Daito-ryu, too, we teach a difficult technique first. This ippondori, I believe, has become ikkyo in aikido and also is related to techniques like shomenuchi ikkyo, katatedori ikkyo, ryotedori ikkyo, and so on. Ikkajo consists of t hirty techniques, but only the ippondori technique became ikkyo in aikido. There are twenty-nine other techniques such as gyaku udedori, kurumadaoshi, koshiguruma, and so on. Nikajo also has thirty techniques and only one of them is called nikyo in aikido. And the case is the same for sankyo. Yonkajo includes fifteen techniques and one of them is called yonkyo in aikido. Gokajo has thirteen techniques and one of them is gokyo in aikido. It includes tasudori (techniques against group attacks), tachidori (techniques against a sword), jodori, kasadori, emonodori (techniques against various weapons) and so on, all of which were practiced in the old days.

So we have 118 different techniques, classified as the ikkyo through gokyo series in Daito-ryu. These make up the hiden mokuroku and only five of those techniques were included in aikido. I would like this to be clear, to avoid any misunderstanding.

The difference between aikido and Daito-ryu in the eyes of the general public is that in techniques of Daito-ryu you must break the balance of your opponent the instant you touch him. This is because there is aiki in the technique, which we use to break the balance of the opponent. This is a major characteristic of Daito-ryu. Another characteristic is its use of atemi. This atemi is also a part of aiki in Daito-ryu. Although it is often said that Daito-ryu looks unrefined or is lacking in magnificence, Daito-ryu also has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful. The aiki no jutsu techniques come after the 118 hiden mokuroku, and they are followed by the hiden ogi, the hiogi, the kaishaku soden, and finally the kaiden techniques.

Reading this interview, and recently haveing a taste of Aikikai, I can't help but wonder if M Ueshiba over the years taught different technics of the Ikkajo, Nikkajo, etc, and they effectively turned into the use in the different styles of Aikido we see today, but are still just called ikkyo, nikkyo, etc.

Of course this is just speculation, but I would like to hear what others think.

Greg Jennings 06-05-2003 05:13 AM

I do have to disagree about only ippon dori being represented in aikido.

I went through all 30 in a class recently showing a roughly similar aikido technique.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale 06-05-2003 09:15 AM

Hi Gregg,

What class was that? Did you do the specific 30 techniques listed in ikkajo? Just currious. I have seen variations of many of the techniques in ikkajo, but not all of them by any means.

Ron

George S. Ledyard 06-05-2003 10:34 AM

O-Sensei and Daito Ryu
 
The first technique of aikido is Ikkyo (lit. first teaching) It manifests the kototama of Suru. More than an isolated technique, ikkyo is the study of immediate control. The technique must be finished the moment we touch our partner, or even before. If you attempt to throw your partner by pushing you will become overextended and vulnerable. This is the most common mistake in the practice of ikkyo. Let your arms rest on your partner by their weight alone, yet transfer your body weight to the receiver. Any attempt to bring your partner down by the power of your arms stops their natural functions, the creation of of form, and your weight cannot rest squarely on your feet. This way you lose verticality, the origin of your power. - William Gleason Sensei in The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido

What you see, I think in post-war aikido is a reflection of O-sensei's increasing interest in the spiritual side of the art. The manner in which he taught did not incorporate a schematic approach to his aikido, unlike Kondo Sensei's detailed description of techniques in a particular order and set relationship with levels that must be completed before the next level is taught. O-sensei was more interested in what a technique like ikkyo contained in terms of the spiritual principles which each technique would demonstrate. Saotome Sensei told us that in fifteen years of training with O-Sensei, he heard the Founder talk about the technical aspects of how one did a certain technique all of three times.

It's not that O-Sensei specifically dropped out these variations of techniques like ikkyo... from what I have seen from Saotome Sensei and several others of the post war generation, they saw O-sensei do almost every variation imaginable over time. I haven't encountered many variations of technique which I have not, at some point seen one of the post-war uchideshi teach in class or do on a video.

I think that a smaller number of techniques were seen by O-Sensei as embodying the spiritual principles which were what he was really trying to teach. So the versions of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and gokyo which most styles of aikido share were the versions that became mainstream because they best showed these principles. That didn't mean that O-Sensei consciously eliminated anything from his Daito Ryu repertoire. As near as I can tell from descriptions of training with the Founder after the war, he was apt to do just about anything. There wasn't any organized presentation except in that the themes he was trying to illustrate weren't technical. The deshi are familiar with most or all of the variations which Kondo Sensei outlines. I have certainly seen Saotome Sensei do a huge number of variations over the years. But like O-Sensei, he hasn't organized them in to a systematic presentation nor are more than several basic variations required on the Yudansha tests. If you, as a student, took the trouble to note down and practice other variations as he presented them, then you would have a wider knowledge than those that didn't.

Like O-Sensei, a lot of Saotome Sensei's teaching is informally done after class is over. If you ask him a question, he'll jump up and show you all sorts of stuff that you hadn't seen in a formal class. Also, as he watches you train on your own he will whip out things that he hasn't generally taught and jump in and show you if he thinks you are ready for them. This is very individual teaching and O-Sensei taught this way as well after the war.

So when people make comparisons between Daito Ryu, in which everything is numbered and ordered and aikido, in which the modern forms have very little that is formally listed, categorized, and ordered, you have trouble making an informed comparison. Much of what one sees in post-war aikido that exists in an ordered and organized form was done by the students themselves in trying to create a system which they could then turn around and teach effectively. Saito Sensei comes to mind first and foremost in this regard.

So essentially I think it is very difficult to say precisely what the technical differences are between Daito Ryu and Aikido. Any statement one might make could be contradicted by the next aikido teacher one encountered since his repertoire might be quite different.

Ron Tisdale 06-05-2003 11:03 AM

Excellent post Ledyard Sensei! Very well stated. The only thing I would add is that it should be clear that the ikkajo syllibus does not just represent variations of ikkyo, but actually different techniques (ex: shihonage). 'Course, some say its all ikkyo...

RT

George S. Ledyard 06-05-2003 11:17 AM

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Excellent post Ledyard Sensei! Very well stated. The only thing I would add is that it should be clear that the ikkajo syllabus does not just represent variations of ikkyo, but actually different techniques (ex: shihonage). 'Course, some say its all ikkyo...

RT

This is an area in which I would be quite unclear in that Saotome Sensei is inclined to either not call a technique anything and just do it or he will demonstrate and then just say it is an ikkyo variation or nikkyo variation. Having trained with other teachers I would come to find out that they either considered it a separate technique or a variation of a different technique than the one Sensei had mentioned. This always turned out to be educational because I would then go back and try to figure out why Sensei had grouped them in his mind the way he did.

The students in my own dojo have benefited from having access to both ways of training. My assistant chief instructor, Kevin Lam, is a student of Imaizumi Sensei. Imaizumi sensei is easily one of the most organized teachers I have ever met. Kevin has huge notebooks full of techniques and their variations all laid out in lovely progressive form... Every technique has a precise Japanese name... So my students get what I hope is the best of both approaches. Certainly most of them know the names of what I am teaching better than I do, thanks to Kevin's efforts.

Kelly Allen 06-11-2003 12:24 AM

Thank you Ledyard Sensei

It was merely a speculation on my part about how the sylibus was taught by O'sensei. It was intresting, and informative to say the least, What your thoughts on this thread were.

It sounds to me that it didn't matter what of the number of Ikkajo technique was taught that so long as it was used in the essence of Aikido It was all Ikkyo.

OR as Tisdale Sensei eluded to. The different techniques used with Ikkyo, Nikkyo ie. tenkan, Irimi, etc. was #1 #2 etc. of the Ikkajo, Nikkajo, techniques in the DRAJ Sylibus. Again I am just speculating, but this is the jist of what I am reading.

Ron Tisdale 06-11-2003 07:42 AM

Hi Kelly,

No Sensei here, just a student. :)

I'm not sure I understand the last half of your post. I wouldn't classify "tenkan" as a technique...though in the Yoshinkan, for instance, you would see technique names such as shomenuchi ikkajo osae ichi and ni. Ichi being an "entering/irimi" technique, and ni being a "pivoting/tenkan" technique. The differentiation in Daito ryu's Ikkajo is much greater. Completely different techniques(what we would call ikkajo/ikkyo, shihonage and many others). Some of these techniques might be deemed "variations" and some distinct technques. And I don't believe ura/omote distinctions are used as separate techniques in the counting...but I should check my resources at home to be sure. Kondo Sensei has an excellent book that I highly recommend. Its available on the aikido journal website.

Ron

Kelly Allen 06-12-2003 03:09 AM

Sorry Ron! I missunderstood your first post. I'd like the name of the book you refer to.

Kelly

TomAiki 06-14-2004 11:05 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
hi kelly i'm new here but read the threds all the time.
i recently purchased the hidden roots of aikido and after reading it passed it along to some sempai and i believe sensi o'conner also read it. i thought the techniques were the same just different names. you can pick it up online...hope this helps. :p

Ron Tisdale 06-15-2004 06:43 AM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Sorry I lost track of this discussion...

The book I was referring to comes with videos of the techniques as well.

'Daito ryu Aikijujutsu; Hiden Mokuroku: Ikkajo' by Katsuyuki Kondo, Menkyo Kaiden of the Mainline school.

I never did check on whether omote and ura are counted as separate techniques...I still don't think so. I'm doing a late spring cleaning at home...perhaps I can check tonight. I cannot stress enough the difference in the techniques in the ikkajo and nikkajo series (30 distinct techniques in each) between what we see in aikido as ikkyo and nikkyo. What we call ikkyo is ippondori...and it is definately NOT just a difference in names.

The book referenced in the last post 'The Hidden Roots of Aikido: Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu'
by Shiro Omiya has had some controversy associated with it I believe. There were posts on it on e-budo, which is down right now. When it comes back up, I suggest doing a search on the commentary there.

Ron

Don_Modesto 06-15-2004 11:45 AM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Quote:

Kelly Allen wrote:
Sorry Ron! I missunderstood your first post. I'd like the name of the book you refer to.

Kelly

Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Hiden Mokuroku: Ikkajo ($27.95)

http://aikidojournal.com/catalog/pro...p?code=kondo01

There used to be two instructional videos covering the same territory, but I don't see them on the site now. Stanley may be converting them to DVD format.

Julio Toribio sells a DVD with 1-2 KAJO in toto and pieces of 3-5 KAJO. Sorry, I have no web address for this. I like the DVD very much myself.

The Hidden Roots thing is fun, I'm glad I invested in it, but it's generally discredited as Daito ryu.

George S. Ledyard 06-15-2004 03:58 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
The Hidden Roots thing is fun, I'm glad I invested in it, but it's generally discredited as Daito ryu.

Don, please elaborate... I am not familiar with this argument.

Chris Li 06-15-2004 07:36 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:
Don, please elaborate... I am not familiar with this argument.

I'm not Don, but...

The author (Shiro Omiya) claims to have been a student of Tsuruyama Kozui (an 8th dan under Takuma Hisa). I trained with a number of folks in Tokyo who spent many years with Tsuruyama, and when I asked them about Omiya and Tsuruyama the answer was "Well, I suppose that you could call yourself somebody's student even if you never trained with them more than once".

Best,

Chris

cguzik 06-15-2004 09:48 PM

...Omiya Book
 
What I recall from the e-budo thread... perhaps Chris Li can elaborate on:

Apparently Tsuruyama claimed at one point to have received a menkyo kaiden from Hisa Sensei, which Hisa Sensei subsequently denied. Tsuruyama did have a legit 8th dan from Hisa Sensei. It seems that Tsuruyama retracted the menkyo kaiden claim and then after Hisa Sensei's death, started claiming it again. He also claimed to have had some association with Kodo Horikawa Sensei, which Horikawa Sensei denied.

I guess the debate over these claims was part of the reason for the controversy... From Chris Li's post, it appears that there are further questions of Omiya's relationship with Tsuruyama.

Also, for whatever it is worth, "Shiro Omiya" is a apparently a pseudonym.

There does seem to be general consensus that the content of the book is solid from a "basics" point of view, especially for aikidoka who wish to gain a glimpse of the surface level of Daito Ryu.

When e-budo comes back, for more details (probably more than you want), the thread was:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...&threadid=6256

Meanwhile, there is some information to be found here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=156

Best,

Chris

Chris Li 06-16-2004 01:43 AM

Re: ...Omiya Book
 
Quote:

Chris Guzik wrote:
What I recall from the e-budo thread... perhaps Chris Li can elaborate on:

Apparently Tsuruyama claimed at one point to have received a menkyo kaiden from Hisa Sensei, which Hisa Sensei subsequently denied. Tsuruyama did have a legit 8th dan from Hisa Sensei. It seems that Tsuruyama retracted the menkyo kaiden claim and then after Hisa Sensei's death, started claiming it again. He also claimed to have had some association with Kodo Horikawa Sensei, which Horikawa Sensei denied.

I guess the debate over these claims was part of the reason for the controversy... From Chris Li's post, it appears that there are further questions of Omiya's relationship with Tsuruyama.

Also, for whatever it is worth, "Shiro Omiya" is a apparently a pseudonym.

There does seem to be general consensus that the content of the book is solid from a "basics" point of view, especially for aikidoka who wish to gain a glimpse of the surface level of Daito Ryu.

When e-budo comes back, for more details (probably more than you want), the thread was:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...&threadid=6256

Meanwhile, there is some information to be found here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=156

Best,

Chris

Ohgami does have negative things to say about Tsuruyama. I don't know the exact nature of Tsuruyama's relationship with Takuma Hisa, but I do know that:

1) Nobody disputes that he held at least an eighth dan.
2) There is a lot of evidence of their relationship that has not been made public (and probably won't be), including many hours of discussion on audio tape between Tsuruyama and Takuma Hisa - Tsuruyama was apparently quite thorough about documenting that kind of thing.
3) I have a copy of Tsuruyama's book in which he supposedly made the claim to have a menkyo kaiden, but there's no claim (to that or any other rank) that I can find in the book (there may have been other printings).
4) Ohgami's claim that Tsuruyama did not have a menkyo kaiden is based upon a postcard from Takuma Hisa - of course, the menkyo kaiden could have been awarded at some point after that post card, if Tsuruyama and Takuma Hisa mended their relationship.
5) I never met Tsuruyama, but some of his students are quite good, so he must have been doing something right.

Best,

Chris

George S. Ledyard 06-16-2004 08:02 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Thanks guys! I suppose on some level it's comforting to know that we Westerners didn't invent the whole bogus styles, inflated ranks and titles thing; that it's just a continuation of another not so venerable tradition.

makro 06-28-2005 04:09 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
There is a long article about Tsuruyama sensei and Hisa Takuma relation in HIDEN BUJUTSU,Tokyo June 2005!!!
It is very interetsting
Matthias K.Kroll
PS Why did Tsuruyama sensei suddenly die ,does anybody know?

makro 11-23-2007 02:27 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Mr Li,
iwould really like to kwnow some names and places where you met peole from tsuruyama senseis students, because i live there in Tokyo and have known only one student whom i met in hamburg!Germany
Best regards Matthias K.Kroll
aikikai 3.dan

Chris Li 11-23-2007 03:24 PM

Re: Diato Ryu Aikijujutsu's relation to Aikido
 
Quote:

Matthias K. Kroll wrote: (Post 194627)
Mr Li,
iwould really like to kwnow some names and places where you met peole from tsuruyama senseis students, because i live there in Tokyo and have known only one student whom i met in hamburg!Germany
Best regards Matthias K.Kroll
aikikai 3.dan

Try http://zuihoukan.gozaru.jp/

The main teacher there worked with Tsuruyama at NTT and a lot of the people there were regulars at his classes for years.

Best,

Chris


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