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Thor's Hammer 05-25-2003 09:24 PM

Hip Throw?
 
I heard somewhere that 'every throw is a hip throw'

I first thought that this was meant to mean that you used the rotational axis at your hips to throw people in every technique.

Today I was introduced to Koshi Nage, the 'hip throw' in which you load uke upon your hips and then drop him from that position.

So which is correct? Does a hip throw mean I use my hips to throw people? Or does it mean I drop them over my hip? I could see how this works with shihonage and iriminage, but how does this work for kotegashi and kaiten nage, for example?

Grappler 05-26-2003 12:34 AM

Re: Hip Throw?
 
Its called hip throw cause you use the hips as a leverage pivot for the fall of his body.



I dont really like hip throws or any turning throws, cause if you stuff it up, you present the back to the opp. And they are hard to pull off in non-gi fighting.

Misogi-no-Gyo 05-26-2003 02:14 AM

Re: Hip Throw?
 
Quote:

Bryan Benson (Thor&#039s Hammer) wrote:
So which is correct? Does a hip throw mean I use my hips to throw people? Or does it mean I drop them over my hip? I could see how this works with shihonage and iriminage, but how does this work for kotegashi and kaiten nage, for example?

Well, I wouldn't say that either of these two definitions is correct. However, the statement that all throws are hip throws is correct. My take on this would be that when you reach a point when you let go of using strength (muscle) to down an opponent, there is a point at which the hips come into play. The key point here is that our center is the midpoint between our hips. When controlling an opponent, it is his center that we manipulate via whatever point they first offer out, be it a wrist, forearm, leg, fist, or what have you. This is a fairly intermediate level, say somewhere around 18 months worth of practice - when Go (square) becomes Jyu (circle). Of course Ryu is far off, say another 10 years, depending on the practitioner.

As one enters into the Ryu phase of training, the idea of "throwing" and opponent dies away. It is replaced with letting the opponent throw himself. Using one's own center to physically affect the position of the opponent's center. We used to have an expression that went, "Don't throw, move your center through the opponent's center."

Basically, the hips move in "complex" circles - complex referring to having multiple orientations with regards to the ground (i.e. containing a 0 degree component, a 90 degree component, ...etc.). If you could slow down an advanced practitioner, and focus solely on their hips, you would see that they turn their hips in relation to the uke (0 degrees) as well as drop their hips (90 degrees), along with another circle, entirely (somewhere in the neighborhood between 30 and 65 degrees).

This is the same for Koshinage, which literally means hip-throw. However, as Andrew pointed out, one has to turn his back in order to execute it.It is important to understand, that in Aikido we don't do this as a "choice" rather as a way of blending with a particular set of circumstances that that occurs because of the timing and proximity of the attack. In aikido, we do not have to grab the gi to perform koshinage. As a matter of fact, I can do koshinage without grabbing anything. As long as I can load you onto my hips, I can throw you, hands are not needed, although they can be helpful to ward off any incoming grab or punch.

In any case, when executed properly, one uses the third circle (mentioned above) as a method to enter (irimi) thus preventing the attacker from punching, kicking or grabbing with any relative power. The interruption of attacker's (uke) position (kuzushi), even for just a split second, is all that is needed, because the turning point, when the nage shows their back, occurs just after blending with the attack using irimi to obtain kuzushi in other words creating a moment outside of time and space (Aiki).

"Aiki" is a very advanced stage of practice. Everyone knows how it feels because they have had both moments when their teachers gave them such a feeling, and when they had moments of it during their own practice - those "Ah-Ha!" moments. Getting to the point when one can repeat it at will is what takes the average Aikidoka more than a decade to achieve. Of course, for others, more than a lifetime...

pointy 05-26-2003 03:49 AM

every throw a hip hop throw? hehe
 
my teacher does kotegaeshi in such a way that it is a hip throw. it is a wonderful thing to see.

i dont know how to describe it in under 10,000 words (im still trying to figure it out myself ;) ). so i'll just say that he turns his hips to a certain angle, you dont really get a choice about breakfalls :freaky:. there isnt any sort of pain in the wrist but you find yourself upside down in the air. i think the part that makes it happen, the way he does it, is how he turns his hips.

he does something similar with shihonage. it's scary cuz the way he winds it up, you think you're going to leave your arm behind while you go do this ukemi. i say to myself "ok, arm, i'll come back for you!" but then it doesnt hurt at all, he just gets uke's weight moving and uses his hips.

you can also do a full on koshinage with kotegaeshi. as uke's palm faces down, step in and put your hip just past uke's hip. uke goes over a la koshi if you catch it right.

for kaiten nage, you can get your hip in there...if you're doing the ura version, load uke onto your hip as you do that big turn right before the "throwing" part (i.e. the part where uke rolls or falls). i never thought of that before, cool idea you have there about the kaiten nage (kaitenage sp?).

have fun,,,,,,

Charles Hill 05-26-2003 07:33 AM

I think that whoever told you that is using a slight play on words to explain that in all throws, a lot of power can (should) come from using hip motion. It is like calling a technique Kokyu nage (breath power throw,) when in reality, one should be using breath power in all throws.

Charles

Bogeyman 06-01-2003 12:23 AM

I agree Charles. I have always been told that every technique is a kokyu nage regardless of what other name may be attached to it. Try holding your breath or inhaling while doing a throw and you will see the difference.

E

Charles Hill 06-01-2003 09:59 PM

Hi Eric,

It was nice to meet you at Elliot Freeman's seminar. It may be off subject, but your last sentence reminded me of something. In a book for beginning aikidoists cowritten by Larry Reynosa, there is an interview with Steven Seagal. If my memory serves me right, he says that he holds his breath when executing a technique. What do you think of that?!

Charles

Kevin Wilbanks 06-01-2003 11:16 PM

From a physiological perspective, I can tell you that holding the breath for a few moments in the middle of an extremely intense action that involves stabilizing the torso is virtually a necessity. When lifters execute circa-maximal power or strength lifts, they always hold the breath, and use the 'valsalva manouver'. This basically consists of trapping air in the lungs and pressing down with the diapragm, which increases intra-abdominal pressure and stabilizes the lower torso/spine. This is a relatively 'instinctual' reaction that really helps when doing something extremely strenuous.

In theory, nage probably shouldn't need to use that much force in a throw, but occasionally, it might be a good thing. We probably use it fairly often, for a moment, when we hit the mat during a hard fall. Although sometimes it's good to deflate as you hit, sometimes you need to momentarily tense up, valsalva and all, in order to protect yourself.

Bogeyman 06-03-2003 04:13 PM

It was great meeting you as well Charles, hopefully we can get together again soon. My understanding of technique is that when the attack comes in you should inhale and when the technique goes out you should exhale. At some point there would be a pause in breathing as Kevin mentioned. Attacks were taught to me in the same manner, exhale with the strike and inhale with the rechamber. That is just my understanding for what it is worth.

E

siwilson 06-03-2003 04:21 PM

Everything comes from the hips!

:)

Charles Hill 06-03-2003 04:44 PM

I was taught the same way, and it still makes the most sense to me. That is why I was somewhat surprised to read about S.S. holding his breath throughout the encounter.

When I was training at various university dojo in Japan, the students were taught to kiai when attacking and throwing. I think this was done to ensure that they exhale at these critical points.

Charles

siwilson 06-04-2003 06:16 AM

In the beginning I don't talk much with new students about breath, although it is mentioned. They have much more to concentrate on.

Later, when they are becoming more proficient in tchnique and form, then breathing is concentrated on more.

In the end, they instictively know when to inhale and exhale.

Breath is so important in technique, but I feel that it is more towards the rhythm. The great breath to generate greater power is a must to know, but with correct timing, distance and balance, it is not needed.

Also, it is important where that breath comes from. Like in singing, it should come from low down ("from the stomache") not high up ("from the throat"). That's what gives the opera singer the power in his voice, and the Aikidoka power in his technique!

:D

Thor's Hammer 06-04-2003 01:16 PM

So there seems to be three opinions:

1- Use some aspects of a hip throw (throwing someone over your hip) in every technique.

2- Use the muscles in your hip to throw people in every technique

3- The hips are irrelevant, use your breath in every technique.

Any others?

siwilson 06-04-2003 01:48 PM

Quote:

Bryan Benson (Thor&#039s Hammer) wrote:
So there seems to be three opinions:

1- Use some aspects of a hip throw (throwing someone over your hip) in every technique.

2- Use the muscles in your hip to throw people in every technique

3- The hips are irrelevant, use your breath in every technique.

Any others?

1- No!

2- Movement and power starts from the hips, the whole body producing power by moving from your center.

3- The hips are absolutely relevant and vital, and so is breath!

As for others, absolutely!

Misogi-no-Gyo 06-04-2003 02:21 PM

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
I was taught the same way, and it still makes the most sense to me. That is why I was somewhat surprised to read about S.S. holding his breath throughout the encounter.

Well, actually, in an interview that I published in the old Dojo Magazine, Seagal Sensei said, "I don't breathe during the technique." That is somewhat different than merely holding the breath. In the beginning levels, one learns to breathe out when executing a technique. However, that is merely to begin to train the muscles associated with the correct breathing method.

When observing advanced practitioners, one of the things that you begin to notice is that you breathe a lot, they don't breathe at all. It is not that they are not breathing; it is that they are breathing in ways that prevent you from seeing breathing at a physical level, so as to prevent you from knowing their timing.

The process would be:

1. Breathe out

2. Breathe out with Kiai

3. Breathe out with silent kiai (all of the breath is expelled prior to kiai).

4. Kotodama-no-Gyo (practice of the practical study of kotodama) Does not actually correspond to where in the rythmn of breath you happen to be)

5. Kotodama-no-ho (application of kotodama) a synthesis of the other four levels plus Otakebi & Okorobi all focused through Chinkon-Kishin.

99% of martial artists never get beyond level two. Observing two individuals training at level three is interesting. Two individuals at level four, dangerous. Two at level 5, impossible.

Enjoy!

Charles Hill 06-04-2003 06:35 PM

Bryan,

Sorry if there is some confusion. The point about using the breath was me going off on a tangent and others providing interesting extra info.

Shaun,

Could you write more about your points 4 and 5? Also could you write about the source of your information on Kotodama?

Charles

Misogi-no-Gyo 06-04-2003 07:25 PM

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Shaun,

Could you write more about your points 4 and 5? Also could you write about the source of your information on Kotodama?

Charles

...I could write several volumes on each of point. However, if you have a specific question, please feel free to write me privately via the e-mail address on my website.

As for kotodama, my information comes from 11 years inquiring into this subject with Seiseki Abe Sensei and via the experiences I have acquired sincerely delving into this teaching on several overlapping plains. I want to delineate this from any (mystical) teachings that may be out there, because there is nothing mystical about the science of kotodama. Mysticism comes from the perpetuation of the misunderstood by those who misunderstand - or never had any first-hand knowledge in the first place.


On my last pass through Japan, I was lucky enough to examine a book written around the turn of the 19-20th century. Basically, it is a guidebook into Kotodama-no-Gyo (the practices of kotodama). However, my understanding is that it is written in Yamato-no-kotoba, which, would first need to be translated into Japanese - a task not many people around can accomplish.

Although there may only be one copy of this book on the planet - it is hand scribed on beautiful rice paper and bound in a very traditional manner - my goal is to eventually have this translated into English. However, this may never be realized, as it really doesn't translate, cross-culturally. Heck - it may not even translate into Japanese...

Thor's Hammer 06-04-2003 08:11 PM

To an inorant newbie, could you explain briefly what 'Kotodama' refers to? And what you mean by the fifth, impossible? Does this mean that it is too hard to accomplish, or does it mean that the effect produced is seemingly impossible?

Misogi-no-Gyo 06-04-2003 10:42 PM

Kotodama??
 
Quote:

Bryan Benson (Thor&#039s Hammer) wrote:


To an inorant newbie, could you explain briefly what 'Kotodama' refers to? And what you mean by the fifth, impossible? Does this mean that it is too hard to accomplish, or does it mean that the effect produced is seemingly impossible?

Bryan - good questions. Although, impossible to cover anything meaningful on the subject, I will "try" to be brief, as anything else would unfortunately do more harm than good.

Here are some basic translations via one of the on-line services:

Please bare in mind that what I write is extremely abbreviated and may not jibe with what is out there in terms of anything that would describe a more mystical approach to this subject matter. In fact, I can say with assuredness that it will contradict much of what I have "read" on the subject from the more "public" sources.

With that "disclaimer" in mind...

kotodama (n) soul or power of language

Kotodama Depending on the resource, it may also be called kototama, and has some teachings with regards to koto-tamashii, as well. :

"Koto" - as in "kotoba"

kotoba (n) word(s); language; speech; (P)

koto (n) thing; matter; fact; circumstances; business; reason; experience.
bold items are relevant

kotou (n) solitary island; (P)

kotou (n) solitary light

dama (n,n-suf) ball; sphere; coin

tamashii (n) soul; spirit; (P)

tama (n) globe; sphere; ball; (P)

tama (n) soul; spirit

tama (n) bullet; shot; shell; (P)

When you do the math, you come up with various compound terms based on several levels of etymological dissection - some not necessarily approved by the more "academic" approaches. However, as a "gyo" or practice, we are taking a direct "practical" approach, so academics must stand aside.

As for level 5; "Impossible" refers only to one "observing" it, as what is visible is only a reverberation of the thing, a reflection, quite removed from and much less than the original, and therefore one, not being of the two practitioners would have no real concept of what is occurring.

I hope that this helps, but as usually the case is with this study, there really is no beginner level to kotodama -- training more closely resembles walking towards the edge of a sheer rock face -- as you approach it, you really can't see much, and by the time you can, you are already falling into what you seek.

Charles Hill 06-05-2003 01:03 PM

I think Shaun's post assumes way too much knowledge, especially for someone describing himself as a "newbie." I will attempt to explain things so Shaun's post can be better understood. (Shaun, jump in if you disagree with something.)

In the Japanese language, most nouns (especially complex ideas) are represented by written characters imported from China. Kotodama is usually written with two Chinese characters meaning word (koto,) and soul (dama.)

To put it very simply, people who practice kotodama, chant certain words to bring about specific results. It is similar to (exactly the same as?) saying, "Abracadabra" in western forms of magic.

Now to fully understand Shaun's post, it is important to know that some people (most famously, Morihei Ueshiba) believe that the indigenous Japanese language (before the influence of Chinese) is an uncorrupted, pure language handed down by the gods. Shaun lists differing words that share similar sounds. To the average Japanese, there is no connection between them. As they are schooled thoroughly in the Chinese characters, there is no confusion between, for example, ball and bullet, even though they are pronounced them same as Shaun points out. This is because, in my opinion, the Chinese characters are different.

To those who study kotodama, there IS a connection between words that sound the same. The connection and the meaning, however, are not revealed without a great amount of study, reflection, and hopefully direct guidance from a teacher.

This is what Shaun means (I think) when he writes about translating "Yamato no kotoba" (the uncorrupted form of Japanese) into Japanese (the now common Chinese influenced Japanese.)

Bryan, I personally highly recommend John Stevens' books on Aikido, especially The Secrets of Aikido. (Shaun, is this what you mean by "public sources?) It is very clear that kotodama was very important to Morihei Ueshiba, and even if you go no further than reading about it, your understanding of Aikido will improve.

Charles

Misogi-no-Gyo 06-05-2003 04:41 PM

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
I think Shaun's post assumes way too much knowledge, especially for someone describing himself as a "newbie." I will attempt to explain things so Shaun's post can be better understood. (Shaun, jump in if you disagree with something.)

Actually, one doesn't need to know anything to practice kotodama, just as one doesn't need to know anything to practice Misogi - other than the actual "how to" of the practices themselves. What the teacher provides is the context for the practices themselves, acting as a guide to prevent the student from wandering into the nether-regions of the mystical - a complete waste of time for anyone interested in measurable results. You can be a blithering idoit, and even deaf, dumb and blind. Kotodama lies in gaining an "overseeing" of the physical parameters of (all) life forms and mapping it over with a contextual magnifying glass using the unification of mind and body through misogi. With this in mind, we can ascribe ourselves to one of two levels - that of Helen Keller, either before or after she allowed the concept of language into her brain. Helen Keller understood kotodama at its root level - and she may never have met a Japanese person. It was the individual that gave her language that was her master - a committed individual with a very high level of ability.



Quote:

To put it very simply, people who practice kotodama, chant certain words to bring about specific results. It is similar to (exactly the same as?) saying, "Abracadabra" in western forms of magic.


Actually it is more akin to waving the wand, as the application of kotodama is silent, so the abracadabra, as you put it is in the mind of the wand waver. However, I don't really care for the metaphor, as there is no relation between Magic (Mysticism) and Kotodama (Application of specific principles) I guess it could apple to "fake" magic, as stage magicians do manipulate the environment in a seemingly invisible way.
Quote:

Now to fully understand Shaun's post, it is important to know that some people (most famously, Morihei Ueshiba) believe that the indigenous Japanese language (before the influence of Chinese) is an uncorrupted, pure language handed down by the gods.


I would not necessarily agree with portions of this statement, but certainly disagree with portions of it.
Quote:

...to the average Japanese, there is no connection between them. As they are schooled thoroughly in the Chinese characters, there is no confusion between, for example, ball and bullet, even though they are pronounced them same as Shaun points out. This is because, in my opinion, the Chinese characters are different.


Yes, but this only applies to translating the book I mentioned, not so much to Kotodama, itself. Point being, actual kotodama can be practiced in any language once a person understands where to look, and what to avoid.
Quote:

To those who study kotodama, there IS a connection between words that sound the same. The connection and the meaning, however, are not revealed without a great amount of study, reflection, and hopefully direct guidance from a teacher.


This is where the danger lies - the words are only actuators, or pointers to what kotodama is, in themselves, they have no power, as any words can be used. This is where a teacher becomes essential - there is a lot of bogus information out there.
Quote:

This is what Shaun means (I think) when he writes about translating "Yamato no kotoba" (the uncorrupted form of Japanese) into Japanese (the now common Chinese influenced Japanese.)


Actually, the problem is with academics who think that because they published a paper on it, or got a PhD, that they know what they are talking about.
Quote:

Bryan, I personally highly recommend John Stevens' books on Aikido, especially The Secrets of Aikido. (Shaun, is this what you mean by "public sources?) It is very clear that kotodama was very important to Morihei Ueshiba, and even if you go no further than reading about it, your understanding of Aikido will improve.


Well, I believe it is always good to read things that are well written. It matters not, if there is any substance at all, as long as it moves you along the path towards actual understanding. As far as kotodama and its importance to O-Sensei, I would agree, but probably for a reason that most remain unaware. Why it was important is because Aikido is a form of Misogi-no-Gyo, and so is Kotodama-no-Gyo. They are linked at a certain level, but more like they way a gas gauge or odometer is linked to a car. You don't need either, however, if you want to understand certain relational concepts, you need to measure them at particular points in space and time.

This is why one must seek a real master, not merely one with the title of master. On a physical level, one can have really good aikido and not know anything of kotodama.

However, if you want to understand O-Sensei's thinking, it is better to ask someone who knows his thinking, rather than someone who only thinks he does. In the end, it will be your own experience that will show you the difference. Kotodama is more about constructing a method of gauging the level one can assert his influencing into the world, something that O-Sensei was seeking to do. It is less about controlling an opponent, or knocking them down with some mystical, unseen power, communing with the gods in their "pure" language of any particular culture, or civilization, or even being a good martial artist. However, depending on what you read, you will hear all sorts of things -- including my statements above.

...See, I knew this was not going to be "brief"


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